U.S. airline industry failing consume...

U.S. airline industry failing consumers, panel contends

There are 42 comments on the ScrippsNews story from Apr 24, 2012, titled U.S. airline industry failing consumers, panel contends. In it, ScrippsNews reports that:

The American airline industry is failing shareholders, employees and passengers, while regional hubs such as Memphis and Cincinnati are being starved of service and priced out of competition, a panel of experts said Tuesday.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at ScrippsNews.

not a fine wine

Warren, VT

#21 May 6, 2012
I agree! Somethings have to be regulated. If not they will be exploited !

That is why they were regulated in the first place.
Spade a Spade

Rochester, MN

#22 May 8, 2012
not a fine wine wrote:
I agree! Somethings have to be regulated. If not they will be exploited !
That is why they were regulated in the first place.
You mean that there are dishonest people out there who run these big corporations who will lie to their employees and customers? I'm shocked to hear this.
OldNWA Guy

New Philadelphia, OH

#23 May 9, 2012
Spade a Spade wrote:
<quoted text>
You mean that there are dishonest people out there who run these big corporations who will lie to their employees and customers? I'm shocked to hear this.
Spade ,you are not even capable of satire are you? What a miserable attempt that was.
single cell amoeba

Appleton, WI

#24 May 10, 2012
Austinite wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL, I am black myself. My grandparents came to Austin, Texas from Durban, South Africa in 1923. South Africa is in Africa in case you were wondering about that. My grandparents could tell you about whites oppressing blacks that would make what was going on in America seem like a trip to Disneyland.
Only you can better yourself and only you are to blame if you do nothing to better yourself.
AMEN.......... If I were a betting man I would bet angry black guy is a white dude
single cell amoeba

Appleton, WI

#25 May 10, 2012
not a fine wine wrote:
<quoted text>You are much better off not flying. The only thing fancy about these private jets is the paint job and Winnebago style seating. The maintenance is mostly contracted out, and ain't no better.
Not so Wine I dont know about flexjet and flight options but Netjets has a maintenance contract with Gulfstream on the large cabin and G200's and Gulfstream rocks as a company, they value there employees and absoulutly see's the importance of a stable workforce, the pay and bennies are as good as it gets. There is a diffrence in safety quality and scheduling when your working for individual customers than an airline that only cares about scheduling,scheduling and scheduling oh and there bottom line as our former company did. Ive seen Singapore airlines maintenance facility.......... SCARY. After a Netjets work order is completed we have to go through there RTS and trust me they dot the I's and cross the T's. the only diffrence I see is that Northwest had engineering support on the spot while Gulfstream has to go through tech ops at the mother ship and our corrosion program was better.
single cell amoeba

Appleton, WI

#26 May 10, 2012
OldNWA Guy wrote:
<quoted text> Spade ,you are not even capable of satire are you? What a miserable attempt that was.
Spot on! seems to fit my defination of satire. whats yours?
single cell amoeba

Appleton, WI

#27 May 10, 2012
OldNWA Guy wrote:
<quoted text> Spade ,you are not even capable of satire are you? What a miserable attempt that was.
BTW why have you never told us what you did for Northwest and why such disdain for the mechs at northwest. I have been in this industry a long time and maintenance at northwest was pretty damm good, is it your hatred of the union, if so im here to tell you the people that worked on the floor at northwest are no diffrent than the people I work with at my non union job. Its aviation dude not the UAW. You know what we all did,dont you think its time to belly up and tell us what your function in aviation was (since im sure your retired) What do ya think? How long has it been since you been hating us or just trying to educate us. I think it's time. WHAT WAS YOUR POSISTION IN AVIATION. Now please don't come back and ridicule me I am just really curious in this great field of aviation, what your part was.
not a fine wine

Starksboro, VT

#28 May 10, 2012
single cell amoeba wrote:
<quoted text>
Not so Wine I dont know about flexjet and flight options but Netjets has a maintenance contract with Gulfstream on the large cabin and G200's and Gulfstream rocks as a company, they value there employees and absoulutly see's the importance of a stable workforce, the pay and bennies are as good as it gets. There is a diffrence in safety quality and scheduling when your working for individual customers than an airline that only cares about scheduling,scheduling and scheduling oh and there bottom line as our former company did. Ive seen Singapore airlines maintenance facility.......... SCARY. After a Netjets work order is completed we have to go through there RTS and trust me they dot the I's and cross the T's. the only diffrence I see is that Northwest had engineering support on the spot while Gulfstream has to go through tech ops at the mother ship and our corrosion program was better.
I apologise. I made my statement off of what I saw while working for a maintenance provider back this way. More than once I saw late find discrepancies not get written up or end up in the round file. If the NRF's are not serialized, no one will ever know. I know how thorough the NJ RTS are. If you stop and think about it... Their RTS is set up this way because their maintenance is performed by so many different providers. With that said... they're paper work all looks good, but what really happens maintenance wise varies from place to place. The only control they have, is their paper work. Gulfstream might be doing it right, but what about the everyone else. Without eyes on the floor how would they know? In one of these small 145's... All it takes is one little over confident supervisor.

The smaller the operation the smaller the mechanic pay. How good can an average experience level of five years really be? When the defining reason for promotion to a lead is being a yes man. The little supervisor only has five years more eperience than the average. Has never worked anywhere but! 90 % of all buy backs are done by production inspection. Who's going to challenge the little supervisor ?
single cell amoeba

Appleton, WI

#29 May 12, 2012
not a fine wine wrote:
<quoted text>I apologise. I made my statement off of what I saw while working for a maintenance provider back this way. More than once I saw late find discrepancies not get written up or end up in the round file. If the NRF's are not serialized, no one will ever know. I know how thorough the NJ RTS are. If you stop and think about it... Their RTS is set up this way because their maintenance is performed by so many different providers. With that said... they're paper work all looks good, but what really happens maintenance wise varies from place to place. The only control they have, is their paper work. Gulfstream might be doing it right, but what about the everyone else. Without eyes on the floor how would they know? In one of these small 145's... All it takes is one little over confident supervisor.
The smaller the operation the smaller the mechanic pay. How good can an average experience level of five years really be? When the defining reason for promotion to a lead is being a yes man. The little supervisor only has five years more eperience than the average. Has never worked anywhere but! 90 % of all buy backs are done by production inspection. Who's going to challenge the little supervisor ?
Agreed, Yeah I don't know how the smaller ops are, however i have heard from an experience mech that ended up at one of those smaller repair stations and no it wasn't good. Yep 5 years your just starting to get a feel for it, that is if your paying attention. ofcourse you do have the exceptions,far and few. Id be bored to tears as a production inspector, maybe when im 70, but thats only where they build them. Hear it's service and grennies which get completed per whatever the STC the customer wants. But in the end if there is a repair station that are hacks, the operator figures that out pretty quick and they will lose the business. Now where the airlines are outsourced all I can say is hacker time.
How bout those regionals wino, would you work on airplanes for 15 bucks an hour?......... Hell no, yet I know guys with 20 plus that went there. The good thing not many.

Hawker beechcraft went chapter 11, first thing they want is to dump there pension obligation to the PBGC.... Nice.

Wino are you still working in the industry, if so great, if not and retired better.
not a fine wine

Starksboro, VT

#30 May 12, 2012
single cell amoeba wrote:
<quoted text>
Agreed, Yeah I don't know how the smaller ops are, however i have heard from an experience mech that ended up at one of those smaller repair stations and no it wasn't good. Yep 5 years your just starting to get a feel for it, that is if your paying attention. ofcourse you do have the exceptions,far and few. Id be bored to tears as a production inspector, maybe when im 70, but thats only where they build them. Hear it's service and grennies which get completed per whatever the STC the customer wants. But in the end if there is a repair station that are hacks, the operator figures that out pretty quick and they will lose the business. Now where the airlines are outsourced all I can say is hacker time.
How bout those regionals wino, would you work on airplanes for 15 bucks an hour?......... Hell no, yet I know guys with 20 plus that went there. The good thing not many.
Hawker beechcraft went chapter 11, first thing they want is to dump there pension obligation to the PBGC.... Nice.
Wino are you still working in the industry, if so great, if not and retired better.
Not retired yet. Been bouncing around working in the arrogant northeast. My last stop was at one of these... not hack repair stations, but one to far behind the power curve to do it right. The place is very mismanaged. The top working supervisor has never worked anywhere else and thinks his little place of employment is a competitor with Duncan Aviation. The guy controls every aspect of maintenance. He is very threaten by anyone with more experience than him. If something is found that is beyond his experience, of 10 + corporate years, he will convince his boss, who is dating his daughter, that it's not within the scope of the inspection. Most of the mechanics are straight out of a local A&P school, and take his word as gospel. The few mechanics who do know what's going on either placate him to keep their jobs... or put as much distance between him and them as they can. Even his boss knows he's lacking, but if he wants happy times at home he can't F with dad. I walked away from this place after they promoted an ex-Army, spit polished, I'll never forget the... Be All You Can Be... Lessons that straighten out his 28 years of life when he began his 10 years of enlistment time. Watching this guy strut around now that he was the leader of two, was just to much to take. And just more proof of who's really run the show. With bozos like this calling the shots. I didn't feel it was a safe place to work. It's not fair, but if your tickets are attached when management F's up. You'll wear that stigma to your next job. Aviation is a small industry, and with what it pays today! The only thing you have left to protect is your tickets & reputation. If you make it out of this business without some corporate DipSh-t's decision putting a mark on your tickets... You can stand as proud and respectable as any 444 !

Good luck to all. The next AMT job I get will be the last. I am aching to put airplanes and the heartless bean counters, in my rear-view mirror!! When it comes to flying safe... If you can't beatem... Run the F away!!!
Platinum Elite

Oak Brook, IL

#31 May 28, 2012
not a fine wine wrote:
<quoted text>Not retired yet. Been bouncing around working in the arrogant northeast. My last stop was at one of these... not hack repair stations, but one to far behind the power curve to do it right. The place is very mismanaged. The top working supervisor has never worked anywhere else and thinks his little place of employment is a competitor with Duncan Aviation. The guy controls every aspect of maintenance. He is very threaten by anyone with more experience than him. If something is found that is beyond his experience, of 10 + corporate years, he will convince his boss, who is dating his daughter, that it's not within the scope of the inspection. Most of the mechanics are straight out of a local A&P school, and take his word as gospel. The few mechanics who do know what's going on either placate him to keep their jobs... or put as much distance between him and them as they can. Even his boss knows he's lacking, but if he wants happy times at home he can't F with dad. I walked away from this place after they promoted an ex-Army, spit polished, I'll never forget the... Be All You Can Be... Lessons that straighten out his 28 years of life when he began his 10 years of enlistment time. Watching this guy strut around now that he was the leader of two, was just to much to take. And just more proof of who's really run the show. With bozos like this calling the shots. I didn't feel it was a safe place to work. It's not fair, but if your tickets are attached when management F's up. You'll wear that stigma to your next job. Aviation is a small industry, and with what it pays today! The only thing you have left to protect is your tickets & reputation. If you make it out of this business without some corporate DipSh-t's decision putting a mark on your tickets... You can stand as proud and respectable as any 444 !
Good luck to all. The next AMT job I get will be the last. I am aching to put airplanes and the heartless bean counters, in my rear-view mirror!! When it comes to flying safe... If you can't beatem... Run the F away!!!
I can see why you're angry. Had the winning lottery ticket and traded it for this sorry tale. What are you going to do when Delta doesn't fall apart? I'll bet lots of crying in to lots of beers.
not a fine wine

Charlotte, VT

#32 May 29, 2012
Platinum Elite wrote:
<quoted text>I can see why you're angry. Had the winning lottery ticket and traded it for this sorry tale. What are you going to do when Delta doesn't fall apart? I'll bet lots of crying in to lots of beers.
Winning lottery ticket? I guess you might be right. BUT! I wasn't comfortable pocketing all the money that came from my co-workers wallets.

single cell amoeba

Appleton, WI

#33 May 30, 2012
not a fine wine wrote:
<quoted text>Not retired yet. Been bouncing around working in the arrogant northeast. My last stop was at one of these... not hack repair stations, but one to far behind the power curve to do it right. The place is very mismanaged. The top working supervisor has never worked anywhere else and thinks his little place of employment is a competitor with Duncan Aviation. The guy controls every aspect of maintenance. He is very threaten by anyone with more experience than him. If something is found that is beyond his experience, of 10 + corporate years, he will convince his boss, who is dating his daughter, that it's not within the scope of the inspection. Most of the mechanics are straight out of a local A&P school, and take his word as gospel. The few mechanics who do know what's going on either placate him to keep their jobs... or put as much distance between him and them as they can. Even his boss knows he's lacking, but if he wants happy times at home he can't F with dad. I walked away from this place after they promoted an ex-Army, spit polished, I'll never forget the... Be All You Can Be... Lessons that straighten out his 28 years of life when he began his 10 years of enlistment time. Watching this guy strut around now that he was the leader of two, was just to much to take. And just more proof of who's really run the show. With bozos like this calling the shots. I didn't feel it was a safe place to work. It's not fair, but if your tickets are attached when management F's up. You'll wear that stigma to your next job. Aviation is a small industry, and with what it pays today! The only thing you have left to protect is your tickets & reputation. If you make it out of this business without some corporate DipSh-t's decision putting a mark on your tickets... You can stand as proud and respectable as any 444 !
Good luck to all. The next AMT job I get will be the last. I am aching to put airplanes and the heartless bean counters, in my rear-view mirror!! When it comes to flying safe... If you can't beatem... Run the F away!!!
Amen! Wow sounds like a pretty bad place. Thank God we have experience here,ofcourse there are new guys comming in from time to time and it takes some time to teach them that this is a regulated industry and that wrenching is just one part of it. its like pulling teeth in the beginning but in the end they get it and become good techs. Yeah if I was in a place like you were in I would RUN! I wish you the best in your next job, it's out there. You are so right at aviation being a small world, very small. In the last two weeks I have learned of people that know people that I have known for 25 years, what a hoot, blows me away. I will never forget when I saw a guy at NW that I was in the service with, way back at Fort Bragg. Yep we can hate this industry, but in the end ya know we love it. Dammit! Stay cool Wine, sorry it took so long to respond.
single cell amoeba

Appleton, WI

#34 May 30, 2012
Platinum Elite wrote:
<quoted text>I can see why you're angry. Had the winning lottery ticket and traded it for this sorry tale. What are you going to do when Delta doesn't fall apart? I'll bet lots of crying in to lots of beers.
YO! you are not close to Platiinum and definetly not elite!!!!
not a fine wine

Charlotte, VT

#35 May 31, 2012
single cell amoeba wrote:
<quoted text>
Amen! Wow sounds like a pretty bad place. Thank God we have experience here,ofcourse there are new guys comming in from time to time and it takes some time to teach them that this is a regulated industry and that wrenching is just one part of it. its like pulling teeth in the beginning but in the end they get it and become good techs. Yeah if I was in a place like you were in I would RUN! I wish you the best in your next job, it's out there. You are so right at aviation being a small world, very small. In the last two weeks I have learned of people that know people that I have known for 25 years, what a hoot, blows me away. I will never forget when I saw a guy at NW that I was in the service with, way back at Fort Bragg. Yep we can hate this industry, but in the end ya know we love it. Dammit! Stay cool Wine, sorry it took so long to respond.
No problem. Keep up the good work. It takes great mechanics to make good mechanics. Places like that are getting harder and harder to find. One thing good I can say about Northwest... they did good job hiring great Mechanics. With the old fleet they flew, they had too. What will these new bozo do when their fleets get old. They'll buy new all over again. So I don't see the the airline business ever getting better. And they said maintenance wasn't core to the airlines. I don't know, but if I made my living fly on one of their airplanes, I'd be thinking real hard about that. Fly safe!!
Old NWA Guy

New Philadelphia, OH

#36 May 31, 2012
El Cid wrote:
<quoted text>
Deregulation has failed in all areas, postal service, banks, airlines, utilities, phone, and so on. Only leads to higher prices and little to no oversight or consumer protection.
Your parents must be proud of you being an expert on the Postal Service Banks,Airlines,utilities phone etc. The President ought to make you at least a cabinet member, to help him in those areas. I hope you are not consulting With Spade on any of those areas.He will want to piss on someones grave again.
not a fine wine

Charlotte, VT

#37 May 31, 2012
Old NWA Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
Your parents must be proud of you being an expert on the Postal Service Banks,Airlines,utilities phone etc. The President ought to make you at least a cabinet member, to help him in those areas. I hope you are not consulting With Spade on any of those areas.He will want to piss on someones grave again.
Did you hear the one about the guy cutting through the cemetery at night? While he was cutting through, he hears moaning coming from one of the graves. As he starts to scurry away, the voice says don't go. He stops and ask what he can do? A head and a hand pop up from behind the grave stone, and the voice says... you got any toilet paper.

Turns out it was just an old wino in need of a Spade to help him bury the $h-t they both had 'too' eat. LOL

Sorry, just couldn't let it 'pass'.
El Cid

Austin, TX

#38 Jun 1, 2012
Old NWA Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
Your parents must be proud of you being an expert on the Postal Service Banks,Airlines,utilities phone etc. The President ought to make you at least a cabinet member, to help him in those areas. I hope you are not consulting With Spade on any of those areas.He will want to piss on someones grave again.
Sometimes a PhD is nothing mroe than Piled Higher and Deeper but yet, my parents are proud of me for attaining what I have.
I would not work for Obama anyways, I actually loath politricksters.
jason

United States

#39 Jun 2, 2012
Deregulation did ruin the industry I have followed th airline industry as well as a former airline employee.
It offered the only way to fly all fares were the same destination for destination no mater how many stops you made to get there. The airline had not competative advantage price wise it was all the same price no matter what airline you flew on.
THe only difference was that nasty airline word,called SERVICE. Continental Airlines had 3 and 2 seating ( wider seats) on big jets in coach. all other offered 3 and 3 . Seat size has not changed in 40 years. It is about the money. Manufactures need to offer larger or wider planes so wider seats can be accomidated and more comfort on longer flights It only makes sense if airlines are going to make it in he future.

not a fine wine wrote:
Very interesting article. Deregulation has failed. And it took a think tank to figure this out. Where was the think tank when they came up with this stupid plan.
Spade a Spade

Rochester, MN

#40 Jun 3, 2012
jason wrote:
Deregulation did ruin the industry I have followed th airline industry as well as a former airline employee.
It offered the only way to fly all fares were the same destination for destination no mater how many stops you made to get there. The airline had not competative advantage price wise it was all the same price no matter what airline you flew on.
THe only difference was that nasty airline word,called SERVICE. Continental Airlines had 3 and 2 seating ( wider seats) on big jets in coach. all other offered 3 and 3 . Seat size has not changed in 40 years. It is about the money. Manufactures need to offer larger or wider planes so wider seats can be accomidated and more comfort on longer flights It only makes sense if airlines are going to make it in he future.
<quoted text>
I certainly agree with you but airlines are in business to make money. I personally heard Dick Anderson state that he didn't care about the casual flyer since they are only looking for the lowest fare. If the could go 4 and 4 they would.

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