Home values keep sinking

[Lamar]

Godsgirl wrote:

<quoted text>
Lamar, you said earlier that you're an attorney. Are you a real estate attorney? Is your business down since the market slowed so much?

I'm not a real estate attorney, though there are some in my firm. I deal mostly with regulatory and entitlement matters. I am more busy now than I have been in a long time. While local developers may have stopped building houses, bigger developers are moving full steam ahead with larger plans. Of course, that's just my experience. Other people's views may be different and valid.

[Orlando]

Orange County blues wrote:

<quoted text>Okay- last time- there are many more homes, offices and retail spaces available than there are takers.
The SUPPLY surpasses the DEMAND.
As the article also states, many are actually LEAVING Florida.
I said nothing about putting up a wall, or closing gates or any such nonsense.
I am simply saying that the SUPPLY extremely exceeds the DEMAND, and that is a big reason why home values continue to sink because the market is GLUTTED.
In addition, that $7.50 an hour is STILL an acceptable wage in this town- and not only in the tourist industry- means there is even MORE house inventory available that people cannot afford to buy.
And yet- despite all of this empty real estate- the developers keep building and building which simply makes no sense for many reasons.

Some people are leaving Fl but we still have a net growth, not as fast but growth none the less.

Construction is down, development is down big time. What little you are seeing is nothing in the overall picture. The market has done a magnificent job of curtailing development. We dont need the government to step in with any more regulation.

The $7.50 job is a function of the task. I agree there are a lot of low paying jobs in Orlando but that is because there are a lot of positions that dont require much intelligence/education. The way to solve that is not to have govt force the hand of those companies to pay above market wages and thus become less competative...it is to draw in more companies that pay higher wages.

[Orlando]

Old Roy wrote:

<quoted text>
It takes more work, skills, and education today to achieve the American Dream than it did years and decades ago.

I disagree on the "more work" part but the skills and education park I couldnt agree more. That is a function of the country advancing, becoming more educated as a whole. More Americans have higher degrees, are more skilled. People still work hard today like they did in the past.

So overall you are correct...you need more education, more skill to achieve the American dream today. That is a good thing, it causes people to strive to achieve and makes us stronger and better.

[Orange County blues]

Orlando wrote:

Orange County Blues:
I apologize for being rude. I guess what gets me so hot under the collar these days is the move towards socialism in this country. Nobody attributes problems to the individual anymore, they just want the governement to step in and fix everything. To me that is one of the scarriest threats to this country as we know it.
When you give the government more powerful it might be all peachy at first, but eventually they will corrupt it. Its the old saying 'Power corrupts'. You have to leave the power in the hands of the people and take your chances that way otherwise you dont have a fighting chance.
As far as government limiting development, that is VERY scary. It already happens and the system is already pretty tight and hard to negotiate if there is opposition to a project. The system is already in place. I know you think it is completly corrupt and terrible but it really is not near as bad as you think.
It's during times of downturn/depression/war that the government scares us into giving them more power and once you give it you can't get it back. All I am saying is be very careful of giving power to the goverment. History is full of examples of how the government will abuse power and wield it to the detriment of its citizens.

Thanks very much, Orlando for the gracious and courteous post- much appreciated!

I am not arguing with many of the valid points you make, and I agree with many of them.

My only real point was that because it makes no sense to keep developing and building in an already saturated market, I fully believe there is quite a bit of pay offs and kickbacks taking place between government and developers. And I am hardly the only person who thinks this is a very commonplace occurrence.

Not only is the market glutted, but overdevelopment is very detrimental to wildlife, plantlife and the environment in general- as well as contributing to an overall decline in the quality of our lives in many ways.

I often find that "less is more" applies, as well as there being a point in time when "enough" becomes "too much" as in overkill, and that is what I see here in Orlando.

As far as socialism is concerned, it is not nearly the dirty word that you seem to think it is. We do live in a society that in many respects practices socialist ideals; we pay taxes for schools even if we don't have children going to those schools and even if we don't have children at all, we pay taxes for roads that we may not use, we pay taxes for social programs and services that we may be fortunate enough NOT to have to use, but that other people do. The ideal is that we all pay taxes for the benefit of all, even if we don't personally and directly benefit.

Also, government and our elected officials actually work for the people and their function is to serve the majority of the people and not the special interests of a few select groups, which is all too often the case in government in any level.

And lastly, if the NEED for development exists, then developing makes sense, but the "build it and they will come" philosophy is quite a bit like putting the cart before the horse.

Seems to make a lot more sense to have the DEMAND before creating an overabundance of SUPPLY.

[Godsgirl]

Lamar wrote:

<quoted text>
I'm not a real estate attorney, though there are some in my firm. I deal mostly with regulatory and entitlement matters. I am more busy now than I have been in a long time. While local developers may have stopped building houses, bigger developers are moving full steam ahead with larger plans. Of course, that's just my experience. Other people's views may be different and valid.

I work for a real estate attorney here on the east coast. Our business has dropped so dramatically, he is now doing litigation, unfortunately! Mostly foreclosures! My, how times change!

[THE SHADOW KNOWS]

Orange County blues wrote:

<quoted text>
As I mentioned in a previous post, I was part of the public that protested Walmart's recent plans to build yet ANOTHER one within 2 miles of an already existing one and the new one would have been about a mile from my house. Due to the objections of many thousands of nearby residents, the County Commissioner denied Walmart's request.
As I stated in that previous post, that was the power of the people at work, and it was indeed a rare instance of the government working FOR the people, instead of AGAINST them.
I was also involved in a protest regarding about 60 acres of sensitive wetlands in East Orlando that was slated for development. Unfortunately, the plans to develop that land are going through- no big surprise, as it is indeed rare that developers do not get their way.
Regarding my home, as I also previously mentioned, my home was already here before I moved down and I bought it from the family of a the previous owner who had died.
My home was built in 1979, long before Orlando was experiencing the mismanaged overdevelopment that is now a way of life here.
Speaking of ways of life- corruption in politics on any and all levels is, as most of us know, extremely commonplace.

Most of the zoning changes are made on land owned by a local residents. Do you want their property rights ignored because you moved in next to them ? The East Orlando development met all the ordinances and state guidelines. The folks opposed did not give testimony to upset those rules. If Wal-Mart had the commission in their pocket how did they lose ? Or is that the plan by the corrupt officials to lose some to win others ? Check and see if your subdivision was opposed by other residents. If it was they left the meeting thinking like you do that all
county and city commissioners are on the take when they lost their fight. The rules changed in 1994 when the Florida Supreme court ruled the petitions for or against a project could not be considered in local a decision. Rather than rile the audience the commissions accept the petitions but give them no weight in their decision. The court ruled that to deny or pass had to be made on competent substantive fact based evidence not on Not In My Backyard (NIMY)testimony.

[Mad]

Orlando wrote:

<quoted text>
WHO SAYS ANYONE DESERVES ANYTHING? Who says because you make 52K a year you deserve a single family home? Where is that written in the constitution, bill of rights, etc?
You feel entitled to a single family home. Not just that you feel you deserve it in Orlando, FL which is what most people would consider a luxury area (I dont but all the snowbirds would argue with me).
Do you see what you are saying? You have determined you have reached a level where you DESERVE the American dream and you are willing to task the government with making sure you get what you feel you deserve. THAT IS SOCIALISM!!!!!!!!!!
You dont deserve crap except what you can afford! Your attitude is what is dragging this great county into socialism. I guess in the long run that is what American's are clammoring for. I prefer capitalism where you get what you work hard for. That is what made this country great.

Amen,

Many of these entitlement minded ignoramuses thought they "deserved" a 400K house even though they made 52K.

Personally I lived in apartments and rentals until I got married because it was what I could afford. Know what, I never got thrown out of anywhere never had a car repoed, never got bad credit despite being fired, losing jobs and starting businesses!

Id rather live in a trailer than to have to worry about how I was going to pay next months monsterous house payment!

[Orlando]

Orange County blues wrote:

<quoted text>Thanks very much, Orlando for the gracious and courteous post- much appreciated!
I am not arguing with many of the valid points you make, and I agree with many of them.
My only real point was that because it makes no sense to keep developing and building in an already saturated market, I fully believe there is quite a bit of pay offs and kickbacks taking place between government and developers. And I am hardly the only person who thinks this is a very commonplace occurrence.
Not only is the market glutted, but overdevelopment is very detrimental to wildlife, plantlife and the environment in general- as well as contributing to an overall decline in the quality of our lives in many ways.
I often find that "less is more" applies, as well as there being a point in time when "enough" becomes "too much" as in overkill, and that is what I see here in Orlando.
As far as socialism is concerned, it is not nearly the dirty word that you seem to think it is. We do live in a society that in many respects practices socialist ideals; we pay taxes for schools even if we don't have children going to those schools and even if we don't have children at all, we pay taxes for roads that we may not use, we pay taxes for social programs and services that we may be fortunate enough NOT to have to use, but that other people do. The ideal is that we all pay taxes for the benefit of all, even if we don't personally and directly benefit.
Also, government and our elected officials actually work for the people and their function is to serve the majority of the people and not the special interests of a few select groups, which is all too often the case in government in any level.
And lastly, if the NEED for development exists, then developing makes sense, but the "build it and they will come" philosophy is quite a bit like putting the cart before the horse.
Seems to make a lot more sense to have the DEMAND before creating an overabundance of SUPPLY.

I think socialism is rampant right now. The average tax rate for an American is 30.8%. That is almost 1/3 and they seem to be headed nowhere but up. At some point we are not only socialist we are slaves to the government. Black slaves in America were forced to work and the master took all the profits and dished back a small amount for food, living quarters, sometimes a ridiculous wage of lets say 1 cent a day or whatever. So lets say it cost 1% of profits to keep a slave, that means the slave was basically forced to work and taxed 99%. If 99% is a full fledged slave...and we are at 30.8%, then we are only 68.2% from being full fledged slaves to the government.

Im against any and all increases in power and money to the government. Giving them more regulation over development would just be another bit of power they would have under their control.

Developers will only speculate when they have a reasonable chance of being sucessful. As a market goes bad they curtail development greatly. That is happening right now all over. You may have some projects around your area that are still going on but overall development and construction has dropped off emensly. Everyone is laying people off, developers are going out of business (especially residential). The natural system of supply and demand is working it's just that in real estate the cycle is a lot longer then a retail product and it takes longer to ride a cycle out.

I'm really not worried about the real estate market, it stinks right now but will get better soon and my hope is that buyers/individuals will learn what is and isnt a good decision. That is if the government lets them and dosent use taxpayer money to bail them out.

[Orlando]

Mad wrote:

<quoted text>
Amen,
Many of these entitlement minded ignoramuses thought they "deserved" a 400K house even though they made 52K.
Personally I lived in apartments and rentals until I got married because it was what I could afford. Know what, I never got thrown out of anywhere never had a car repoed, never got bad credit despite being fired, losing jobs and starting businesses!
Id rather live in a trailer than to have to worry about how I was going to pay next months monsterous house payment!

Thats exactly how I feel. I qualifed for a $300K house a year ago when I was looking to get out of my apartment. I was amazed because I couldnt imagine making that payment every month. Now the government is toying with the idea of taking my tax money and helping those people stay in their houses they can't afford. Its nuts.

[Orange County blues]

To ORLANDO:

On average, the first four months of each year's income for the average American worker is what it takes to pay their taxes for any given year, so that means that for a third of each year, we work just to pay our taxes. This is nothing new.
As the chasm widens between the rich and the poor- with the middle class becoming almost non-existent- the chasm will also widen between the haves and the have-nots which will result in higher taxes. This also is nothing new.
Given these very rough economic times we live in, there are many working families who through no real fault of their own are just one paycheck away from disaster- meaning that loss of a paycheck can make a huge difference.
With unemployment and layoffs increasing along with the price of such staples and necessities as gas and milk, many families-and most of those with two incomes- are left to choose between the two.
And those families, just like those of us in better financial positions, also work 4 months of every year just to pay their taxes.
Then there is the ever sky rocketing cost of health insurance, in addition to many employers dropping employer sponsored health insurance plans because they can no longer afford to even pay the 50% of the premiums that they are legally required to pay.
Just think how much worse that situation would be if government had NOT mandated that employers must pay at least 50% of the least expensive health insurance plan available!
If anyone thinks they are already paying too much for utilities such as water, gas and electric, just think how much more we would be paying if increases in rates did not require government approval!
Don't get me wrong- I am NOT a proponent of bigger government, but there is no denying that without government controls such as the ones I cited above, the economic and financial situation for the average American worker would be much worse and much more bleak than it already is.
Somewhere between not enough government control and too much government control there is a happy medium.
And, I think that for the most part, this country is closer to that middle ground than many other countries.
And again, as we are a society, it is only in the best interest of ALL that we ALL support the many public goods and services available- even if we ourselves do not PERSONALLY use those services- such as schools, roads, and the social programs in place for those who do use them.

[bob]

bolis wrote:

"mikie wrote:
florida is finished , you people still living there suckers, you are hoping for a dream."
mikie, glad you're not here.

Texas is great, boiling in the summer and freezing in the winter.

[Orlando]

Orange County blues wrote:

To ORLANDO:
On average, the first four months of each year's income for the average American worker is what it takes to pay their taxes for any given year, so that means that for a third of each year, we work just to pay our taxes. This is nothing new.

It is something new. Income taxes are less than 100 years old and the country is over 100 years old. I have never heard of taxes going down as a whole. We are continually taxed more and more without any sign of it letting up. This should worry every American.

Orange County blues wrote:

As the chasm widens between the rich and the poor- with the middle class becoming almost non-existent- the chasm will also widen between the haves and the have-nots which will result in higher taxes. This also is nothing new.

Who says the middle class is disappearing? I would like to see facts to support that because everyone I know that tries betters their financial situation. I don’t know of 1 person that tries to get into the middle class that did or does not make it. The only thing I see is poor people choosing to stay poor through making bad decisions.

Orange County blues wrote:

If anyone thinks they are already paying too much for utilities such as water, gas and electric, just think how much more we would be paying if increases in rates did not require government approval!

Utility companies and government are in bed. Have you ever noticed all the taxes on your various utility bills? Also notice how few services you have to choose from, usually you have no choices. When I see private companies reporting to the government I see corruption and lack of competition. Rather than trusting government I would rather have 10 different choices for each service and let them compete for my business. Right now there is no competition. Basic economics say when you have a monopoly prices will rise.

Orange County blues wrote:

Don't get me wrong- I am NOT a proponent of bigger government…

You are most definitely a proponent of bigger government, you don’t realize what you ask for. You task the government with managing every aspect of your life from health care, utilities, opportunity, etc. You don’t specifically ask for it to be managed but when something goes wrong you blame the government. The founding fathers warned that the citizens themselves would ask for mass amounts of taxation and government slowly but surely as politicians use public funds to buy votes.

[Orlando]

Orange County blues wrote:

Somewhere between not enough government control and too much government control there is a happy medium.
And, I think that for the most part, this country is closer to that middle ground than many other countries.

I disagree. Name one thing you are allowed to do of any substance without government approval. Drive a car? Add something to your house? Buy anything? Get water, power, cable? You cannot exist in America without government involvement in every single portion of your life.

Orange County blues wrote:

And again, as we are a society, it is only in the best interest of ALL that we ALL support the many public goods and services available- even if we ourselves do not PERSONALLY use those services- such as schools, roads, and the social programs in place for those who do use them.

I agree with roads. Schools in my opinion are failing/terrible as a whole. Again, no competition/no choices. Social programs for the most part reward and promote laziness and dependence on government over a dependence on yourself.

Let’s face it, you and I are perfect examples of our big/small government thinkers. Sadly I think your side will win and there is really nothing my side can say or do that will change that. Humans are inherently selfish and want more for themselves. If all they have to do is send their elected officials out to take from those who are successful and give to those that are not. This is what has been happening to Americans every day since income taxes began. The ironic part is that in the end I think it will lead to the destruction of America and ultimately massive amounts of suffering for all Americans.

Ultimately that is the difference. You think eventually enough government will create utopia. I think it will create a disaster. I am confident because history is on my side.

[Orlando]

Sorry, disregaurd the post above this one, I double posted.

[Michael Corleone]

Godsgirl wrote:

<quoted text>
Yeah, we were shocked. We got paper products, meat, even clothes, and it was still half the price or more than Publix! Unfortunately!

So you saved tons of your hard earned money, and you find this to be "unfortunate"

I suggest you consult a dictionary as to the definition of the word "unfortunate".

I suppose you have a reason for your illogical aversion to saving money?

[Godsgirl]

Michael Corleone wrote:

<quoted text>
So you saved tons of your hard earned money, and you find this to be "unfortunate"
I suggest you consult a dictionary as to the definition of the word "unfortunate".
I suppose you have a reason for your illogical aversion to saving money?

You need to read all the posts and not just one. I stated earlier that I don't like going to Walmart because of dealing with the horrible parking. That I have to go there in order to save money, when I would rather be going to Publix, yes, is unfortunate.

[Michael Corleone]

Godsgirl wrote:

<quoted text>
You need to read all the posts and not just one. I stated earlier that I don't like going to Walmart because of dealing with the horrible parking. That I have to go there in order to save money, when I would rather be going to Publix, yes, is unfortunate.

I notice that there are certain folks who will drive around for 10 minute rather than walking 200 feet from the rear of a parking lot.

not saying that this is you, but surely, to save over $100 is worth what must be at most a few minutes of hassle in a large parking lot.
I mean what are we talking here? A quarter of a mile at the very most.
Some, like me, actually prefer to stretch our legs and get some exercise.

To each hisor her own though, sounds like you only grudgingly would rather walk a few hundred feet to save that $136 while simultaneously doubling your purchasing power.

If you take taxes into account, this is an amount of cash which takes me nearly an entire work day to earn.

Sorry to harp, but it seems as if many have theeir priorities all mixed up, and just look for something to complain about.

[Michael Corleone]

Orlando wrote:

Sorry, disregaurd the post above this one, I double posted.

And I did read all the post, I am simply astonished to hear about the incredible laziness of my fellows.

I should not be surprised though, especially when there are those who ride around the store in those handicapped carts rather that walk through the store to shop.

And these are without fail the very people who are obviously in need of some exercise.

[Lamar]

Michael Corleone wrote:

I suppose you have a reason for your illogical aversion to saving money?

My "illogical aversion" to "saving money" is actually more of an aversion to shopping is a freaking zoo. It's worth a few extra bucks to avoid the mad house. Of course, I don't have a large family, and I make good money. So, no harm no foul.

The only thing I find more repugnant than far left Walmart haters is rabid Walmart fans who think saving a nickel on buttwipe paper means the whole world should shop there.

[Orange County blues]

TO ORLANDO:

Ah- so the utility companies are in bed with the government but developers are not? LOL!!!!
When I said the tax system was nothing new, in a country that is only 232 years old, it's not exactly new that for almost half that time there has been an income tax.
Who says the middle class is disappearing!!!! LOL!!! Do your own research my friend, and you will find many reputable sources that have rightly stated- and proven-that the middle class is being squeezed out by the very wealthy and the very poor and is in danger of becoming almost non-existent.
You say you'd rather have 10 companies to choose from? Well, regarding health insurance, you have at least half a dozen and yeah- they're all competitively priced- competitively priced to send the middle class to the poor house due to lack of being able to afford their "competitive" ever-sky rocketing premiums!
I don't blame the government for the desire of big business to rape the American public- but I DO hold government accountable for allowing that exploitation to get worse with each passing day.
You seem to forget that the government works for US,and in effect, we hire them when we vote for them and we pay them with our taxes so here's an analogy that might get you to understand that:
A person works for someone. That person's job is to find the most reasonably priced office supplies, say, and part of their job is to negotiate with suppliers to get the best price. But the person doesn't do that, because they think that the supply companies should charge whatever they want and they think their boss has no right to insure that the company's clients get the best deal possible and the most bang for their buck.
So- translated- the government works for us, and imo, part of their job as our employees is to insure that the American public is not subjected to price gouging and other unethical practices which are all too commonplace in American businesses today.
As far as taxes going up- well yeah......as the population continues to grow, we need more schools, we need more roads, we need more libraries, we need more social programs and more assistance programs for lower income and middle lower income wage earners.
And it is not only taxes that continually increase with no sign of letting up. You will never pay less for a quart of milk or a loaf of bread or a tank of gas than you are paying now.
The prices may level off and remain steady for a while, but they will increase again- just like taxes.
I do NOT ask the government to manage ANY aspect of my life and I have never relied on the government for one thin dime.
You do not know me- yet you presume to know what I expect from government.
I can tell you what I do NOT expect- I do NOT expect something so stupid and inane as the patriot act, I do NOT expect something so invasive and ILLEGAL as the wire-tapping and eavesdropping on thousands of Americans, I do NOT expect 200 MILLION tax payer dollars to be spent each and every day on the illegal invasion of Iraq- without any sign of letting up!