Transit Matters: The truth about HOT lanes

[Tsarbomba]

Need for traffic relief wrote:

<quoted text>
Cliff Slater made this statement on HOT projected cost by the City to be twice as much as to build the H-3 freeway which has two miles of tunnels,(point 1)in his "Transit Matters article, go ask him for specifics. You can stop begging for info, you're already discredited.

So you've just verified you're being a lemming, not really knowing whether the AA really mentions about the H3 or not. I told you I haven't found anything in the AA mentioning about the cost of H3 vs managed lanes in 2006 dollars. And the best you can do is say ask Slater? Better yet, why doesn't Slater have footnotes to point out where his source is? If he's so confident he's right, why make things ambiguous, just list where it was found on what page in the AA. Discredited indeed, I look forward to you giving me that page. I really would like to examine that comparison, to see what details have been purposefully left out.

[ipj737]

CLIFF SLATER - DICKHEAD wrote:

Cliff Slater is so full of crap it is ridiculous. He has only selfish motives for pushing more freeways (you can call it HOT, Managed Lanes, whatever, it still a freeway FOR GAS GUZZLING AUTOMOBILES & BUSES! By the way, Cliff, how many tour buses do you own these days??

Yeah, yeah, yeah... we all know HOT lanes are a ridiculous option... just as ridiculous as rail. But while they tout HOT lanes as the "better option", their main agenda TODAY is getting rail on the ballot - exactly where it should be. Once rail is off the drawing table, we have 50+ other options other than HOT lanes to look at and implement for a fraction of the cost.

[ipj737]

compressed air car wrote:

I notice that pro-railers always talk about today's cars when poo-pooing HOT lanes.
There are new technologies ramping up for mass production as we speak. Here are a couple of articles about a car that runs on compressed air. They also have a hybred model that uses a small gas engine to assist the compressed air engine that gets something like 100 mpg. These types of cars would be perfect for Oahu, as most of the time the distances traveled are under 100 miles.
As stated in the articles, this version of the car may not make it in the USA due to it's construction techniques and materials...however, it's only a matter of time until someone uses this technology and builds a vehicle that will pass American laws. Once Americans see other people in other countries using these types of vehicles, there is no way that American auto makers will be able to not offer this technology.(And if they insist on not offering it, the Japanese or Korean auto makers will).
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/ne...
http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/mar...

Compressed air cars are a big fat joke. They are like hydrogen fuel cell cars - another big fat joke. What do you need to compress this air into a tank? It's called energy. And where will this energy come from? It's called electricity. What is the efficiency loss of electricity compressing air and then utilizing that compressed air to create traction at the wheels? Anywhere from 40-60%.

There is promising technology that is much, much closer - and much more efficient. It's called a PHEV (plug in hybrid). Within 2 short years, cars that can run on pure electricity with a total efficiency sacrifice of <20% will be on our roads. Watch for PHEVs to revolutionize the car industry forever. In the meantime the pro-rail dreamers visualize an inefficient (even by today's standards), ridiculously expensive, circa 1900 technology in our transportation infrastructure mix in 10 years. Now that's some progress!!!

[ipj737]

Kirkland wrote:

There is nothing wrong with a car based society. It is ludicrous to even think that we all in Oahu are to get rid of our cars and begin using bicycles and start riding the train and buses. Pro-rail people who are not hired PR of the city writing in this forum needs to look closely at the message and not at the messenger. The consequences to the people of Oahu of spending billions and billions just to build and then millions and millions just for the maintainenance of rail transit is financial disaster which is too horrible to allow to exist. The current one-half percent GET is terribly insufficient to generate $1 billion. That would mean either increasing the GET and or property taxes.

While I'm firmly against rail for Oahu, I disagree with your ideology that there is nothing wrong with a car-centric society. The city hasn't explored other options that may actually provide at least a little relief to congestion (studies prove that rail will not relieve congestion but may perhaps stymie additional congestion due to more development). The city should probably start by making one GROUND LEVEL lane in the center of the freeway reversible (and restricted to buses) during morning and afternoon hours and add considerably more express buses to utilize this lane. Another option, the zipper lane, which has been relatively successful - they just have to expand on it by reversing in both directions and add more express buses - and make the lane restricted to buses and carpools (3+) ONLY. What did it cost to get the zipper lane built?

[ipj737]

I hate to repost what I already posted to Topix but I figure it would be appropriate as I stated there are other options outside of HOT lanes... Here are a few.....

Little to zero cost suggestions –

-Staggering work hours
-Implement 4/5 day work schedules (one week 4 days, next week 5 days, days off alternate)
-Implement 4x10 work shifts (four 10 hr shifts 4 days)
-Change UH class hours to not commence during peak rush hours
-Reversible lanes on Nimitz viaduct $0 (only man hours to reverse/unreverse)
-Decrease response time to roadway accidents/debris removal/investigations
-Incentives to businesses for home-based employment (which will become more ubiquitous with technology)
-Higher registration fees for non commercial vehicles
-Higher gas taxes (penalizes only those that travel far distances, drive gas guzzlers/unnecessarily large vehicles)
-Pay at the pump insurance
-Force developers on the west side to build commercial and industrial space equal to every residential space built
-Develop a FUNCTIONING traffic management system that can control traffic lights to address problem areas
-Remove all unregistered cars from the roads
-Hire some REAL traffic engineers to synchronize our traffic lights
-Employees that don’t drive cars to work should be credited for not requiring parking stalls (most employers offer parking stalls for employees but DON’T pay them $200+ month or more, which is the cost of parking in town, if they don’t need them)
-Change Land Use Ordinance to allow PERMANENT grandfathering of higher density-built homes (even if house burns down/rebuilt/remodeled/demolis hed for new structure, same density can be re-established – current LUO prevents same number of units to be rebuilt in case of fire, demolishing or reconstruction of homes) This will curb urban sprawl

Modest cost suggestions -

-Install more “smart” traffic lights that can determine flow/speed rather than placement 100 feet from the intersection
-Improved bus systems (comfort, aesthetics) to attract more riders
-Install DVR based and wireless IP based cameras on ALL busses to increase safety and ridership
-More dedicated HOV lanes
-Install traffic lights at freeway entrances
-$5 shuttle busses from airport to Waikiki
-Expanded contraflow lanes (e.g. Dillingham, Pali)
-Fix potholes which cause accidents, tire blowouts, and slow cars down
-Advanced tow truck deployment system for accidents and stalls
-Free public parking for microcompact cars (e.g. Smart car, et al)

High cost suggestion (which cumulatively is still much cheaper than rail)

-Expanded bus services (more bus stops, more bus stops in more areas, more busses)
-More Express buses
-Dedicated reversible bus lanes
-INSTALL BIKE LANES ON ALL MAJOR THOROUGHFARES!!!!!!!!!!
-Tax credits for developers of commercial and industrial space in West Oahu
-Tax credits for private education institutions in West Oahu (to allow private schools in West Oahu)
-Expanded carpooling program utilizing efficient hybrid electric vans
-Expanded park and ride stations with COVERED parking and CAMERAS for motorcycles, bicycles and mopeds ONLY
-Build a REAL functioning ferry system (NOT THE BOAT)
-Give every man and woman over the age of 21 on Oahu a small personal electric vehicle, e.g. Segway, electric moped, etc (half kidding here but we could actually do this for under $1 billion – one fifth the cost to build rail )

[Local Afar]

Need for traffic relief wrote:

<quoted text>
The HOT would be elevated, within existing right-or-ways, over the Kam Hwy median strip between Pearl City and Aiea, over the H-1 Viaduct median, and over the Nimitz median to Iwilei ending with a flyover to Hotel Street and an underpass to Alakea Street..a total of ten miles and a cost of $1.0 Billion versus $5.0 Billion for Rail.
The rest of the HOT would use the existing four-lane one-way King and Beretania Streets (a couplet). HOT will not need any elevated highway in Honolulu.

Might be a better solution than the Parsons-Hanneman project, but it would make a mess of that whole area -- and still not give us releif for years. Plus, King and Beretania can be great streets for avoiding the freeway when it's jammed. Making them into more of a speedway would be tough on that part of town.

The Feds are turning away from big construction projects anyway, and focusing on less expensive solutions to bottlenecks and congestion. I think the City should stop funding pricey PR people with one agenda. They should bring in unbiased experts from the FHA and the DOT to discuss less intrusive and expensive solutions, at least until a better long term solution to growing population and roadway congestion is found.

[Local Afar]

Kailuaresident wrote:

Hot lanes work when they are underutilized (therby providing a free passage for those few who can afford to use them). Rail is called 'mass' tansit for a reason. HOT lanes are mini-transit. And when those buses exit the 10 mileHOT lane, they are right back into congestion. HOT lanes also do nothing to get us away from a auto-centric type of society.

Both alternatives have big flaws. With elevated steel rail, people will still need to get from home to the rail station, and from rail stations to their destinations. They will have to use buses, which will get stuck in traffic too.

I don't think of the Hanneman rail project as "mass" transit. It is only projected to serve a very small percent of the population. Mass transit should have a much wider route and base of support, or it will be a waste of taxpayer money. We love our cars because they are the fastest, most convenient way to get around. If you are a mass transit fan, and want alternatives to the car, build a better bus system, plus protected walkways, bikeways and pedestrian bridges. They are simpler to bring about and would have tremendous benefit in the short and long run. Put rail on the shelf until the economy gets better, and newer technologies have been explored.

If are a HOTlane advocate, you're looking at simpler ways to reduce traffic congestion. But please, not so fast with elevated roadways! First bring in experts versed in reducing bottlenecks, and other congestion solutions, such as Work Zone Management, Corridor Management, and Value Pricing. And if toll lanes are part of the future, so be it. That strategy worked well where I grew up. After a decade or so of fees and faster roadways, the state had made up enough of the cost of the changes, and the booths were removed.

We're at each others throats about this because we're moving too fast and people feel they have to take one side or another. In truth, there are no really good solutions on the table. When a more sensible and affordable solution comes up, things will resolve, and we'll be on the move again.

[AkamaiLocal]

Tsarbomba wrote:

<quoted text>
Ahh yes, the usual side step. Truly a waste of time indeed. Repeating gibberish is still well....gibberish. You seem to have a god complex, that somehow if you repeat, it makes it right and fact.

Tsarbomba,

Speaking of a "god complex". If there is anyone in these forums that have that complex, it is YOU!

You are one of those "know it alls" who really know very little but make the same kind of inane, unverified arguments over and over.

Do your homework and use your brain before you post.

[HOT diggity dog]

Very mature...I guess not surprising from someone who picks such a user name. And I don't think Slater owns any tour buses. Maui Divers operates shuttle buses to and from their factory. Is that what you're talking about? Again, very mature. What does that have to do with anything??? I've never heard that Slater (now retired from Maui Divers) wants to use them for anything but Maui Divers business. But, leave it to the juveniles on the pro-rail side to imply such.

CLIFF SLATER - DICKHEAD wrote:

Cliff Slater is so full of crap it is ridiculous. He has only selfish motives for pushing more freeways (you can call it HOT, Managed Lanes, whatever, it still a freeway FOR GAS GUZZLING AUTOMOBILES & BUSES! By the way, Cliff, how many tour buses do you own these days??

[Tsarbomba]

AkamaiLocal wrote:

<quoted text>
Tsarbomba,
Speaking of a "god complex". If there is anyone in these forums that have that complex, it is YOU!
You are one of those "know it alls" who really know very little but make the same kind of inane, unverified arguments over and over.
Do your homework and use your brain before you post.

You wrote a lot in here but didn't contribute one single thing to the issue of transit, rather just focusing on attacking me. Did you really use your brain? Doesn't look like it. Go through my posts, I don't cut and paste like the regular pro-HOT propagandists. And when anyone that points out valid points, they never address them directly, they just switch gears. That's where the god complex comes into play. You just can't stand it that I don't buy into the HOT BS.

[Tsarbomba]

HOT diggity dog wrote:

Very mature...I guess not surprising from someone who picks such a user name. And I don't think Slater owns any tour buses. Maui Divers operates shuttle buses to and from their factory. Is that what you're talking about? Again, very mature. What does that have to do with anything??? I've never heard that Slater (now retired from Maui Divers) wants to use them for anything but Maui Divers business. But, leave it to the juveniles on the pro-rail side to imply such.
<quoted text>

Think about it. Maui Divers has shuttles to bring in their customers. So a nice private road helps them bring their customers in and out quicker. They don't mind paying a toll because it's a business write off.

[AkamaiLocal]

Tsarbomba wrote:

<quoted text>
You wrote a lot in here but didn't contribute one single thing to the issue of transit, rather just focusing on attacking me.

Tsarbomba,

Here's a transit-related item.

http://honolulutraffic.com/Trains_in_China.wm...

Is this the ALTERNATIVE WAY TO COMMUTE you're trying to sell us on?

www.StopRailNow.com

[Tsarbomba]

AkamaiLocal wrote:

<quoted text>
Tsarbomba,
Here's a transit-related item.
http://honolulutraffic.com/Trains_in_China.wm...
Is this the ALTERNATIVE WAY TO COMMUTE you're trying to sell us on?
www.StopRailNow.com

Resorting to irrational fear mongering again? Wasn't the argument used by pro-HOT folks that no one will ride the rail? Yet now you're saying it's going to be overpacked? Such flip-flopping statements on honolulutraffic.com is what discredits them. Oh yeah, pay careful attention to the clip, it's not a train in China, they are speaking Japanese. Can't even get that right, how do you honestly expect people to believe you have the better solution to our transit worries?

[Local Afar]

Geez T&A, get a room! You both gave good info and food for thought before, but now your posts are crazily personal. Any responses on other posted ideas?

[AkamaiLocal]

Tsarbomba wrote:

<quoted text>
Oh yeah, pay careful attention to the clip, it's not a train in China, they are speaking Japanese. Can't even get that right, how do you honestly expect people to believe you have the better solution to our transit worries?

Tsarbomba,

Maybe you're the one that should pay careful attention (or just read more carefully). I didn't say anything about the train being in China. So who's getting things wrong here? GOTTTCHA!!!

And as far as better solutions, instead of spending $5-billion on a rail system that will simply give 7.4% of commuters and alternative way to get to work, how about spending some of the money this way:

1)$500-million on repaving ALL City & County roadways, and highways all over Oahu;

2)$370-million on building safe and useful bikeways all over Oahu (or 1,000 times the $370-thousand the City allocated for bikeways this year);

3)$200-million on more pedestrian overpasses and cross-walk safety devices;

4)$1-billion to build underpasses under the 20-busiest intersections on Oahu so cars don't have to stop 2 - 3 minutes or backup at those intersections;

5)$10-million to synchronize all Oahu traffic signals to avoid constant stop-and-goes.

6)$1-billion to improve TheBus with more express buses from key communities to downtown, UH Manoa, Waikiki, private schools, etc.

7)$250-million for special tax credits and financing plans to encourage Oahu residents to purchase plug-in hybrid cars.... that get 50, 60, and 70-mpg and give off far less noxious emissions.

8)$600-million of clearing up of
H-1 bottlenecks.

The above 8 projects would cost less that $4-billion but do infinitely more to improve traffic congestion than rail. And, the benfits will not be just for the 7.5% from the West Oahu corridor, but for 100% of Oahu residents!

Now, Tsarbomba, that's just some of the things one can do with 80% of the money you are willing to have squandered on the rail boondoggle.

[Local Afar]

AkamaiLocal wrote:

<quoted text>
Instead of spending $5-billion on a rail system that will simply give 7.4% of commuters and alternative way to get to work, how about spending some of the money this way:

1)$500-million on repaving ALL City & County roadways, and highways all over Oahu;
2)$370-million on building safe and useful bikeways all over Oahu (or 1,000 times the $370-thousand the City allocated for bikeways this year);
3)$200-million on more pedestrian overpasses and cross-walk safety devices;
4)$1-billion to build underpasses under the 20-busiest intersections on Oahu so cars don't have to stop 2 - 3 minutes or backup at those intersections;
5)$10-million to synchronize all Oahu traffic signals to avoid constant stop-and-goes.
6)$1-billion to improve TheBus with more express buses from key communities to downtown, UH Manoa, Waikiki, private schools, etc.
7)$250-million for special tax credits and financing plans to encourage Oahu residents to purchase plug-in hybrid cars.... that get 50, 60, and 70-mpg and give off far less noxious emissions.
8)$600-million of clearing up of
H-1 bottlenecks.

Except for #4(the underpasses) you've got my vote! I'd take that billion and put it into even more Bus improvments. Safer wait areas, turn-ins so that trafic is not so impeded during stops, clearly posted schedules, high tech communication between drivers and Central, building in more flexibility so that changes can be made as problems arise, and shuttles along school routes during peak hours.

I would also start a campaign to get rid of overhead wires and poles. Oahu would be vastly more beautiful without these eyesores getting in the way, filling up with termites, blowing down in storms, causing outages, and leaking toxins.

[Tsarbomba]

Local Afar wrote:

Geez T&A, get a room! You both gave good info and food for thought before, but now your posts are crazily personal. Any responses on other posted ideas?

Please review the postings, these pro-HOT folks are hellbent on the personal attacks.

Is there a particular idea you wanted feedback on? I'm all for improvements in the current system but I don't believe Oahu's quality of life will improve without a major investment in transit infrastructure. I know you dislike elevated structures but the only other option is to go underground and that is far most cost prohibitive. And I do find a bit of irony, you're in Sweden or perhaps lived in Sweden at one point. You acknowledge their great solutions and infrastructure, yet you don't want them implemented on Oahu?

[Tsarbomba]

AkamaiLocal wrote:

<quoted text>Maybe you're the one that should pay careful attention (or just read more carefully). I didn't say anything about the train being in China. So who's getting things wrong here? GOTTTCHA!!!

Are you serious? You toss a link at my way and you don't pay attention to it's title or link? It says train in China. Obviously you believe in honolulutraffic.com since you're using them as your source for your arguments. I've just shown you how wrong that website and group of special interests are. They can't even refer to a video correctly, what creditability do they have?

[AkamaiLocal]

Local Afar wrote:

<quoted text>
Except for #4(the underpasses) you've got my vote! I'd take that billion and put it into even more Bus improvments. Safer wait areas, turn-ins so that trafic is not so impeded during stops, clearly posted schedules, high tech communication between drivers and Central, building in more flexibility so that changes can be made as problems arise, and shuttles along school routes during peak hours.
I would also start a campaign to get rid of overhead wires and poles. Oahu would be vastly more beautiful without these eyesores getting in the way, filling up with termites, blowing down in storms, causing outages, and leaking toxins.

Local Afar,

Good suggestions. In addition to a better bus system, more and better VanPool arrangements. The Pacific Business News just reported a dramatic increase in commuters going to VanPools since the gas prices have been rising. Government, large corporations, UH Manoa, private schools are all good candidates for such services: door-to-door at a fraction of the cost.

With regard to the parking problem many,including me, are concerned with, look at the CityCar aka "Bit Car" that M.I.T. designed. I hope that this will be commercialized soon. I've communicated with the designer of this car and he was interested in coming to Hawaii to test the concept.

http://web.mit.edu/francov/www/citycar/

And, regarding #7, incentives to Oahu car buyers to buy plug-in hybrids, take a look at this recent report:

http://ti.org/antiplanner/...

Finally, regarding Tsarbomba, he's proving once again that he's not really interested in finding the best traffic solutions for Oahu.

He's only interested in trying to convince everyone about how smart he is, but is only succeeding in proving the EXACT OPPOSITE with his lame arguments!

[AkamaiLocal]

Local Afar wrote:

<quoted text>
Except for #4(the underpasses) you've got my vote!

BTW, what objections do you have against underpasses? They will allow cars to flow through over-burdened intersections. Eliminating long, idling stops increases gas efficiency and decreases CO2 emmissions, not to mention saving time.

Some candidates: Vineyard-Liliha, Vineyard-Pali Hwy, Vineyard-Punchbowl, King-Alapai, King-Piikoi, King-Piikoi, King-Universit, Kapiolani-Kalakaua, Kapiolani-Piikoi, etc. etc.

I'm sure every community has one or more intersections they'd love to have such an underpass. Maybe we could allocate 1 to each of the 9 Council Districts and let the residents of each District vote where they want it.