Chicago Bulls' Ben Gordon looks beyon...

Chicago Bulls' Ben Gordon looks beyond playoffs

There are 138 comments on the Chicago Tribune story from May 2, 2009, titled Chicago Bulls' Ben Gordon looks beyond playoffs. In it, Chicago Tribune reports that:

Ben Gordon is a meticulous sort, the guy whose shaving kit is organized just so after every game before he addresses reporters.

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Stratmaster

Memphis, TN

#123 May 17, 2009
Dwayne wrote:
<quoted text>
First of all, they offered him $50 million dollars.
Second, you asked the question about Hinrich. Averaging 15-17 ppg as a starter with Gordon on the team, and plays defense, do I think he's a star. No, I don't! But if that's your basis, how do you explain paying Gordon less than you pay Hinrich, when CLEARLY Gordon has more impact and value to the success of the team? You, being the Bulls, set the bar. You pay Hinrich $10,000,000 a year! Now BG's supposed to accept equal or less? It's a MARKET BASED system. The Bulls set the market. BG's a better player, and he's proved that. So now he's wrong to want more? I don't get that argument.
It has nothing to do with being a "Star". It has everything to do with "value". Why would the Bulls pay Hinrich that kind of money, knowing you just drafted BG, a guard, third overall? Did they not think he would become as valuable as he has? Or were they hoping that? Taking all of that into consideration, YES, I can see how BG would think that the Bulls are low-balling him. But again, if they don't believe he's worth it, it sure looks like they're many teams that want his services. Pistons, Rockets, Lakers, Raptors, Knicks, etc... That's why I started this by saying I hope they let him go.
Hinrich's salary goes down 1/2 million each year, so the 50+ mil. they offered Ben was more than Hinrich's contract.

Yes, a 16 ppg player with a complete game has more value than a 20ppg scorer who can't do anything else.

And you really can't think the Bulls drafted a player 3rd hoping for him to fail, could you?
Stratmaster

Memphis, TN

#124 May 17, 2009
Dwayne wrote:
<quoted text>
It's clear that you're a Hinrich fan. And that's fine. We can agree to disagree. My point remains that BG has proven his value within the market based system the NBA has. You like Hinrich. So you highlight what you believe is his attributes.
In my opinion, Hinrich is a 6th man. I get WGN here in NY. I've watched MANY Bulls games. As I recall, weren't Bulls fans moaning and groaning at the amount of shots Hinrich would take? How there were times that Hinrich wouldn't even pass the ball when he came down court? His impact on a team with Tyson Chandler and Eddy Curry wasn't all that great now was it? Granted, Curry is a bum. But doesn't good PG's make their teammates better? Who did Hinrich make better? And the ultimate proof of Hinrich's value was they couldn't find ANY TEAM who wanted him in a trade. Yet they pay him $10,000,000 a year.
I guess we easily forget that a lot of those games in BG's rookie year, when Hinrich was shooting the Bulls into double-digit deficits, that it was BG that put them back into a position to win. I guess we easily forget that as a rookie he led the NBA in fourth quarter scoring, because like Peter Vescey once suggested that Skiles stumbled into realizing that when you need points, you need a scorer not a chucker. Chucker being Hinrich at that time. And that Skiles approach towards BG, and others, would cause friction internally.
You say he looks like he could yawn, I say he's composed. Has always been that way. You say he takes bad shots, I say he's a scorer, scoring at a 41% fg percentage, scorers sometimes take bad shots. You say he tries to pad his stats, I say revisit my last sentence. You say he dribbles the ball off his foot, I say his breakdown moves in the open court is among the best in the NBA. And he goes to the line shooting nearly 90%. You say he doesn't even attempt to fight through screens, I say, like other commentators have said, that VDN never stressed fighting over screens as a team. Oh, btw, he did it very well as UCONN player. But then again IT WAS STRESSED by Calhoun.
He's not the best defensive player, and it doesn't help he's outsized quite often. But he works hard for the Bulls. NO ONE has suggested otherwise. The very fact that he was able to play against the Celtics is testament to that. That kind of player YOU VALUE. Not foolishly, but you do. If the Bulls don't, then he should go where he is valued. I, for one hope he does.
All those arguments and the capper is he "works hard". Geesh, for 6.35 million I'd say he didn't work any harder than anyone else.

Actually, I think Hinrich is a 7th man, right behind Gordon as the 6th man. Of course to do that you have to have two starting Guards, which we will next year with Rose and Salmons.

So I will say it again. If BG is willing to accept the 6th man role and associated salary than great. Welcome back. If not, it will not affect the Bulls much as long as they have Hnrich coming off the bench. Spend BG's money on a post presence.
Stratmaster

Memphis, TN

#125 May 17, 2009
Nada Surf wrote:
<quoted text>When did you move to Villa Park?
Are you kidding? I'm everywhere! Well, actually I'm wherever Bellsouth decides to route me through.
carrmichael

Chicago, IL

#126 May 17, 2009
Dwayne wrote:
<quoted text>
You need to re-read what you've written! When you said "juvenile aspersions", immediately after you cited as AN EXAMPLE that leading scorer/salary analogy. And that's what I responded to. Go see for yourself.
And i'll say it again, it's not about BG being a star or an A player. IT'S ABOUT VALUE! Hey, if you don't like what he's done, then LET HIM GO! Don't start all of a sudden trying to act like he's been some negative impact on this team! Like I said to Strat, how easily we forget what he's done for this team when the team COULD NOT SCORE, even WITH Hinrich on the floor. His fourth quarter performances kept the Bulls in games that they were being blown out in.
You wanna say BG is a flawed player, that's fine. Then what does that make Hinrich? A better one? Hinrich's impact on this team is no where near BG's. You're in "Hinrich Fantasy Land" if you believe that. But here's the problem; Hinrich makes $10,000,000 a year with less impact on the team's success than BG. Yet you want BG to take equal, or less than what Hinrich makes in a Value based pay system. Are you serious?
Say you can't afford him. Say you believe you're better off with Salmons at the SG spot. But don't say you believe he's equal to Hinrich. Whether you like it or not, Hinrich's salary DOES matter. Because the Bulls set the bar by offering it to a similarly positioned player.
Finally, as to your last two points. Yes, I believe your opinion in this context is stupid. But it's YOUR opinion. Your entitled to one just as I am. Doesn't mean you're stupid! Don't get sensitive on me! And secondly, I don't think re-signing BG is a slam dunk. My very first post on this issue was, I HOPE THEY LET HIM GO! It should've been a slam dunk two seasons ago. Not now, now that he's a unrestricted free agent. The Bulls aren't going to match what other teams offer BG, provided that his value is as great as some have suggested after his playoff performance.
Honestly, if I were the Bulls, I'd let both BG and Hinrich go and look for power post players who can score. The rumor is Portland is interested in a trade for Hinrich. Go get a Channing Frye or Joel Przybilla. Or even an LaMarcus Aldridge. The Bulls need interior scoring. It'll make their perimeter players better. Or a combination of a big and a Martell Webster, who has good size for a SG, to back up Salmons at the 2. Or dream big for a Greg Oden. He's injured again, I think. But you'd probably have to add something to the pot. You've got the stud PG. Now you need scoring power players who can take the pressure off of Rose.
Dwayne - You're the one who's not reading closely, although perhaps I could have been more clear. Here's what I said regarding your insulting rhetoric:

"..we've all come across posters like Dwayne who make their points by calling everyone else stupid and idiotic. True to form, Dwayne spits out these juvenile aspersions to punctuate entirely questionable opinions, like the notion that individual scoring average is all that matters in a team sport."

Calling everyone stupid and idiotic are a juvenile aspersions. Your blanket statements suggesting high scoring average outweighs all other attributes is an example of a questionable opinion you punctuate with all caps instances of IDIOTIC.

And I don't think you're reading the rest of my posts very carefully either because I'm never said the Bulls should pay Gordon less than Hinrich; I said the Hinrich and Deng contracts are moot points and the Bulls should let BG move on so they (the Bulls) can do exactly what you suggest in your last graph -- go after a big man who can complement D-Rose.

So we agree on what will help the Bulls and we agree that they should let Gordon go (although we disagree entirely on WHY they should let him go). Given this, I fail to see how this makes you a genius and me an idiot with stupid opinions.
Dwayne

Mount Vernon, NY

#127 May 18, 2009
carrmichael wrote:
<quoted text>
Dwayne - You're the one who's not reading closely, although perhaps I could have been more clear. Here's what I said regarding your insulting rhetoric:
"..we've all come across posters like Dwayne who make their points by calling everyone else stupid and idiotic. True to form, Dwayne spits out these juvenile aspersions to punctuate entirely questionable opinions, like the notion that individual scoring average is all that matters in a team sport."
Calling everyone stupid and idiotic are a juvenile aspersions. Your blanket statements suggesting high scoring average outweighs all other attributes is an example of a questionable opinion you punctuate with all caps instances of IDIOTIC.
And I don't think you're reading the rest of my posts very carefully either because I'm never said the Bulls should pay Gordon less than Hinrich; I said the Hinrich and Deng contracts are moot points and the Bulls should let BG move on so they (the Bulls) can do exactly what you suggest in your last graph -- go after a big man who can complement D-Rose.
So we agree on what will help the Bulls and we agree that they should let Gordon go (although we disagree entirely on WHY they should let him go). Given this, I fail to see how this makes you a genius and me an idiot with stupid opinions.
Whatever Carrmicheal. I've already apologized for that. You want to wallow in it, that's your problem. You need to get over it.

Secondly, when someone writes "like the notion..." explaining the preface of that statement, YES, THAT'S THE EXAMPLE YOU ARE MAKING! At NO TIME did I say that scoring average is all that matters. But it's idiotic, YES IDIOTIC, to suggest that it doesn't have an major impact in contract negotiations with a player, especially when issues like that are used in contracts all the time as incentives, that if reached will earn the player more money. You cannot be that naive!

And yes Carrmichael. YOU NEED TO READ MY POSTS. I explained why Hinrich contracts matters if your BG. You disagree, fine! We agree to disagree.

Enjoy your day.
Dwayne

Mount Vernon, NY

#128 May 18, 2009
Stratmaster wrote:
<quoted text>
Hinrich's salary goes down 1/2 million each year, so the 50+ mil. they offered Ben was more than Hinrich's contract.
Yes, a 16 ppg player with a complete game has more value than a 20ppg scorer who can't do anything else.
And you really can't think the Bulls drafted a player 3rd hoping for him to fail, could you?
First of all, Hinrich's NOT a 16ppg player. Try 9.9ppg this season, 13ppg in his career. Frankly, players like that are all over the NBA. And catagorizing BG as a 20 ppg scorer who can't do anything else just proves you're a Hinrich lover. And that's ok. Fortunately, BG's teammates disagree according NBAtv. As far as your last sentence, one would hope not. But I have to admit, I wonder. I do wonder. Especially where Reinsdorf is involved.
Dwayne

Mount Vernon, NY

#129 May 18, 2009
Stratmaster wrote:
<quoted text>
All those arguments and the capper is he "works hard". Geesh, for 6.35 million I'd say he didn't work any harder than anyone else.
Actually, I think Hinrich is a 7th man, right behind Gordon as the 6th man. Of course to do that you have to have two starting Guards, which we will next year with Rose and Salmons.
So I will say it again. If BG is willing to accept the 6th man role and associated salary than great. Welcome back. If not, it will not affect the Bulls much as long as they have Hnrich coming off the bench. Spend BG's money on a post presence.
LOL! Yes, ALL OF THOSE ARGUMENTS AND WORKS HARD, Strat! Becaue as an athlete, that's what you use to make your case in contract negotiations that you seemingly so cavalierly jettisoned. But fortunately for BG, there's teams that take it seriously.
So you actually think that with BG gone, Hinrich will pick up where BG left off? Wow. I don't even believe the Bulls believe that. If they did, they wouldn't have tried like hell to trade Hinrich last offseason, with no takers I might add.
I think the only sure way to make up or surpass the difference at the moment is to go with the rumored offer of a sign and trade with the Rockets to get McGrady. No lack of scoring there. Although you'll be writing about other issues if that happens.
carrmichael

Chicago, IL

#130 May 18, 2009
Dwayne wrote:
<quoted text>
Whatever Carrmicheal. I've already apologized for that. You want to wallow in it, that's your problem. You need to get over it.
Secondly, when someone writes "like the notion..." explaining the preface of that statement, YES, THAT'S THE EXAMPLE YOU ARE MAKING! At NO TIME did I say that scoring average is all that matters. But it's idiotic, YES IDIOTIC, to suggest that it doesn't have an major impact in contract negotiations with a player, especially when issues like that are used in contracts all the time as incentives, that if reached will earn the player more money. You cannot be that naive!
And yes Carrmichael. YOU NEED TO READ MY POSTS. I explained why Hinrich contracts matters if your BG. You disagree, fine! We agree to disagree.
Enjoy your day.
Dwayne - This will be my last post on this matter as you appear to be unwilling or unable to debate in a civil manner and these last couple exchanges were fairly pointless. I can't waste more time trying to help you parse sentence structure or comprehend the subtleties of pro basketball as neither seems possible.

In hopes that your blood pressure will settle down, you should know that I am aware that scoring more points is the object of a basketball game and that teams value this statistic highly in negotiating contracts. I knew both of these things to be true before you pointed them out, but thanks anyway.
Dwayne

Mount Vernon, NY

#131 May 18, 2009
carrmichael wrote:
<quoted text>
Dwayne - This will be my last post on this matter as you appear to be unwilling or unable to debate in a civil manner and these last couple exchanges were fairly pointless. I can't waste more time trying to help you parse sentence structure or comprehend the subtleties of pro basketball as neither seems possible.
In hopes that your blood pressure will settle down, you should know that I am aware that scoring more points is the object of a basketball game and that teams value this statistic highly in negotiating contracts. I knew both of these things to be true before you pointed them out, but thanks anyway.
Experience has taught me that when the person you're having a dispute with relegates themselves to the ole "parsing of sentence structure" contention, that usually means they've surrendered in terms of the main points of the dispute. I'm not completely sure that's the case here, but hey, it is what it is. Good luck to you, Carrmicheal!
Dwayne

Mount Vernon, NY

#132 May 18, 2009
Oh, and for the record Carrmichael; I know too many people who's played the game of pro basketball, represented players in the game of pro basketball, and are close to this particular situation we WERE debating for you to help me understand the "subtleties of pro basketball". I'll simply ask them, thank you.
Nada Surf

Glendale, AZ

#133 May 18, 2009
Dwayne wrote:
Oh, and for the record Carrmichael; I know too many people who's played the game of pro basketball, represented players in the game of pro basketball, and are close to this particular situation we WERE debating for you to help me understand the "subtleties of pro basketball". I'll simply ask them, thank you.
Name a few.
Stratmaster

Collinwood, TN

#134 May 19, 2009
Dwayne wrote:
<quoted text>
First of all, Hinrich's NOT a 16ppg player. Try 9.9ppg this season, 13ppg in his career. Frankly, players like that are all over the NBA. And catagorizing BG as a 20 ppg scorer who can't do anything else just proves you're a Hinrich lover. And that's ok. Fortunately, BG's teammates disagree according NBAtv. As far as your last sentence, one would hope not. But I have to admit, I wonder. I do wonder. Especially where Reinsdorf is involved.
You're quoting hinrich's numbers as a bench player. The Bull's aren't going to play 4 on 5 if Gordon leaves.
Stratmaster

Collinwood, TN

#135 May 19, 2009
Dwayne wrote:
<quoted text>
****! Yes, ALL OF THOSE ARGUMENTS AND WORKS HARD, Strat! Becaue as an athlete, that's what you use to make your case in contract negotiations that you seemingly so cavalierly jettisoned. But fortunately for BG, there's teams that take it seriously.
So you actually think that with BG gone, Hinrich will pick up where BG left off? Wow. I don't even believe the Bulls believe that. If they did, they wouldn't have tried like hell to trade Hinrich last offseason, with no takers I might add.
I think the only sure way to make up or surpass the difference at the moment is to go with the rumored offer of a sign and trade with the Rockets to get McGrady. No lack of scoring there. Although you'll be writing about other issues if that happens.
dwayne, you really don't read the posts, do you? I never said Hinrich would take up where Gordon left off. In fact, I said Gordon would be 6th man, Hinrich 7th man. Then I said when Gordon leaves Hinrich would still come off the bench.

Yes, I do believe that Salmons, Deng and Hinrich will MORE than make up for BG witht he additional minutes and shots they will get.
Nada Surf

Mesa, AZ

#136 May 19, 2009
Stratmaster wrote:
<quoted text>
You're quoting hinrich's numbers as a bench player. The Bull's aren't going to play 4 on 5 if Gordon leaves.
You're stealing my stuff!
That's my Hoosier's line!
That's OK.
You're one of my pupils, anyway.
Dwayne

Mount Vernon, NY

#137 May 20, 2009
Stratmaster wrote:
<quoted text>
dwayne, you really don't read the posts, do you? I never said Hinrich would take up where Gordon left off. In fact, I said Gordon would be 6th man, Hinrich 7th man. Then I said when Gordon leaves Hinrich would still come off the bench.
Yes, I do believe that Salmons, Deng and Hinrich will MORE than make up for BG witht he additional minutes and shots they will get.
For your sake, I sure hope you're right.
Dwayne

Mount Vernon, NY

#138 May 20, 2009
Stratmaster wrote:
<quoted text>
You're quoting hinrich's numbers as a bench player. The Bull's aren't going to play 4 on 5 if Gordon leaves.
Unless there's a major free agency pick up, the Bulls would be better off staring Rose, Salmons, Deng, Thomas, Noah/Miller. Plus, it doesn't sound like the Bulls are looking forward to starting Hinrich. If Portland is that interested in Hinrich, I'd make that deal. The players you get back will go a lot further towards resolving their biggest issue. Post scoring.
Dwayne

Mount Vernon, NY

#139 May 21, 2009
Well, it looks as if Gar Forman wants BG. Now, at what price.
Stratmaster

Cordova, TN

#140 May 23, 2009
Nada Surf wrote:
<quoted text>You're stealing my stuff!
That's my Hoosier's line!
That's OK.
You're one of my pupils, anyway.
Don't get all excited Nada. Just because I only discount 95% of what you say instead of 100% like most doesn't amke me your pupil.

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