Oh I think using the Knicks is a great example of how to manage a roster. Think about it...if even the Knicks can do something about their player problems, couldn't the Pacers?<quoted text>
By the way, invoking the Knicks as an example of how to manage a roster isn't really the strongest position you could take.
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#63 Mar 1, 2008
#64 Mar 2, 2008
Are you kidding me w/ the Polian/Dungy reference? Polian kept Steve Muhammad on the team for well over a year after he beat his wife and step son. She died shortly after and at the time people thought it was due to him beating her down pretty good.
Mike Doss stayed through his contract after firing his gun outside OSU bars for no apparant reason.
Ed Johnson has a history of sexual misconduct at Penn State. Dude goes undrafted and we take a chance on him just months after being kicked off the team for the misconduct.
I could go on w/ Colts players who continue to get second chances after offenses much worse than anything the Pacers players have done.
#65 Mar 2, 2008
If you're well-aware of the difference between buying out and "dumping" a player, then that would have shown in the post I replied to. Previous posts don't matter, especially if they're inconsistent w/ other ones.
As someone else sort of said, the Marbury situation is completely different. Isiah Thomas is crazy. He fights w/ his players more than he parties w/ them, which is quite often.
Shawne Williams didn't get extended. The option was picked up. That makes complete sense because he could get a lot more money on the open market than his rookie salary. That gives us the option to trade him this offseason.
He also didn't get convicted of a misdemeanor or a felony. I believe it was just a traffic violation.
It may seem cliche to you, but you can't convict someone before they've been proven guilty. That's the foundation of our court system. Shawne Williams wasn't convicted of anything substantial.
#66 Mar 2, 2008
You made a lot of sense, and I agree with almost everything you wrote until you made your comment at the end of your post.
total bandwagon jumpers
I don't know if you have something against Hoosiers but we are not aliens. You might want to look into the history of other teams that have suffered the same off court troubles as us HOOSIERS. You might want to look into Portland, Detroit, etc, etc..... and check their media sources and listen to people talk about "thugs" and other names that fans call their team. You might want to rephrase that comment to any fan in any city that trashes their team are band wagoners.
#67 Mar 2, 2008
First off he was arrested, not given a ticket. At last check you don't go to jail for a ticket.
Indiana Pacers President Larry Bird says the team is "extremely disappointed" with the ARREST of forward Shawne Williams. Williams is accused of marijuana possession and other charges, including not having received a driver's license.
Williams got out of jail around 11:00 am Tuesday. Metro police arrested the 21-year-old pro baller shortly after midnight.
Secondly, I guess were just supposed to ignore the fact that the guy in HIS car (the murderer) was doing drugs and the guy in the back seat was a convicted cocaine dealer with a stolen gun?
But hey, as long as he's not "convicted" it's okay.
You are judged by who you associate with.
#68 Mar 2, 2008
In a normal situation you MIGHT be right concerning Shawne Williams, however what the Pacers have now is not a normal situation. When over 70% of the people in Indy wouldnt go to the games for FREE, you have a problem. The Pacers have come off as an organization that will do NOTHING about the off the court problems unless it benefits their pocketbooks. Believe it or not, I am okay with that fact as long as they are prepared for the consequences. It should be pointed out that the Pacers need to realize that when you are located in the Midwest, thats probably not going to go over real well with most people. Releasing Williams would be the right thing to do and prove the Pacers value morals and ethics more than money.
Lets put it this way, do you think that more people or less people will show up with Shawne Williams on the roster?
And arguing about the contract extension/team option is just samantics. If they wouldnt have picked up the option, he was gone. Basically they gambled on Williams and hoped to keep him (not trade him) and it doesnt look like thats going to work out too well.
#69 Mar 3, 2008
That's a late 90's argument and is not valid anymore.
If you pay any attention to the NBA at all you would see that the return of the "team" oriented basketball is in full effect.
Look at teams like Detroit, San Antonio, Los Angeles, New Orleans, Boston.
Those teams play true "team" basketball and it shows in their record.
#70 Mar 3, 2008
I agree that we should be disappointed in Shawne Williams. That disappointment shouldn't creep to the side of cutting him off the team completely (whether through buy-out or a 50-cent on the dollar trade). Shawne himself is a good guy. He's not very intelligent -- both in grades and in home life -- but he doesn't do things himself that are horrible. He just supports the wrong people, which is common for anyone who was once poor and now rich (whether from NBA, NFL, or even the lottery). I don't know about you, but I have family members that I wouldn't talk to if they didn't share blood. These friends of Shawne's are like family members -- people that were there for him back when he was nothing.
Just becauses Indiana is more conservative doesn't mean they have "higher morals". Indiana is racist and homophobic. I know because I've spent my whole life here. I don't want to see any sports players acting like the Pacers have recently. I also don't want to see any sports players act like the way the Colts do. What kills me is that no one ever cares that Colts players have been arrested for worst stuff than the Pacers, yet no one in Indiana gets on their high-horse. Where are the morals when it comes to the Colts? No one ever answers that question on these forums, including you, IPS.
The Colts get in more trouble than the Pacers. The Colts brass has consistently kept trouble makers on the team more than the Pacers. The Colts won the Super Bowl. The Pacers have not won the NBA Finals. That's the only difference.
#71 Mar 3, 2008
First off, Shawne is not a good guy. Even his high school coach said he hung around the wrong crowd. Lets review Williams. Hangs around murders, drug users, theifs, and convicted felons. What exactly does it take to make someone a bad person? He allowed somebody to do drugs in his car! I dont know who you are or where you are from, but most of us in middle America think allowing anybody to do drugs in your car makes you a bad person. Befriending murders makes you a bad person.
I will answer the Colts question head on. The people causing the trouble theyre gone. I ask you to identify the people with issues on the roster who have been in trouble while a member of the Colts. When you are finished with that, give me the percentage of the team that fits into that category. I can think of one player on the roster of questionable character and that would be Ed Johnson.
Really, thats why its not in the news every week because the percentage of people getting in trouble for the Colts vs. the Pacers is very disproportionate. 26% of the Pacers roster has been in some kind of police report, either directly or indirectly. Thats a big percentage.
#72 Mar 3, 2008
Typical Colts response. Wrong is wrong, my friend. If you want to play the moral card, then you must play it whether it is only 1%, 10%, or 100%, especially when two separate acts of sexual assault are involved (as you mentioned - Ed Johnson).
Here are more off the top of my head:
Peyton Manning paid a settlement for exposing himself to another woman in college. Sure, you can downplay it, but he still paid 6 figures to keep her quiet.
Marvin Harrison was sued for attacking young fans for an autograph. There are also reports that he allegedly got physical w/ two officers.
Nick Harper was arrested for domestic battery the night before a playoff game (possibly costing the game) and he was kept through the end of his contract.
Steve Muhammed beat his pregnant wife and step kid (the wife and her baby died due to a "car accident" 10 days later). Polian was quoted as saying the team didn't have to discipline him because the league would. The league didn't discipline him for nearly a year (2 games,$30K, two dead -- no biggie though).
Mike Doss was charged w/ a felony for firing a gun in a crowded Akron bar for no reason. He was kept on the team until his contract expired the following year.
Dallas Clark was kicked out of a girls basketball game in his hometown for rowdy behavior. If hanging out w/ the wrong crowd makes you a bad guy, then getting kicked out at a girls basketball game can't be far behind.
DeDe Dorsey was arrested before the Super Bowl and was still at the big game.
Dexter Reid was arrested w/ a gun and weed shortly after SB. Maybe it was after, but if you want to make assumptions w/ Shawne Williams, then you must assume Dexter had a gun and smoked weed prior to SB41.
Darrell Reid was arrested on drug possession. You know him as the guy who had the big ST hit in Week 17.
I'm sure there are more. It's tough to stay on top of it because it happens so much (yet doesn't get the media play Pacers get; or the fan scrutiny).
Keep playing the percentages, but morals are morals. Either play the card every time or don't play it.
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