New Knicks lineup disappears against ...

New Knicks lineup disappears against Magic

There are 24 comments on the Newsday story from Dec 27, 2007, titled New Knicks lineup disappears against Magic. In it, Newsday reports that:

Only the Knicks could make a drastic lineup change and have it blow up in their face in two minutes and six seconds.

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EdL

New York, NY

#1 Dec 27, 2007
Actually, this is simple. Marbury was nowhere in sight, and Curry spent almost all the first three quarters on the bench, therefore the Knicks had a fighting chance to win. It's no coincidence that the moment Curry came back into the game, the game went down the drain.

I actually find myself feeling badly for Curry. Last year, Isiah told him he was the main man, and poor Curry believed it. Instead of concentrating on doing the things that would make the Knicks functional with Curry - working on him kicking the ball out to the perimeter when he gets double-teamed down low and on positioning for rebounds, and acquiring a DEFENSIVE power forward who can rebound and pick up the other team's hot scoring big man - Isiah went out and got the one player who could simultaneously crowd out Curry and blow out the team's salary cap room. Any wonder this season has become the Lost Weekend for Curry?

Then again, only Isiah could do that, and THEN fumble the lineup call. Randolph has had his awful moments this season, but on the whole, he's been more productive. He's no worse defensively than Curry, is a better rebounder and is more versatile on offense.

Isiah's real weakness is that he has no conception of how the team should be structured, no clue as to how to build options into their offense, and is completely tone-deaf to the principles that were the hallmarks of the Knicks (unselfish offense and harsdworking team defense) when they last won an NBA championship almost 35 years ago. Other than that, I think he's doing just swell.

Since: Jun 07

Oceanside, NY

#2 Dec 27, 2007
Well put, EdL. There is no structure to this team and he has helped build this. Put it out on paper player by player and it makes NO sense how this team was constructed.
Oh, Eddy. "maybe I'll just tell him I need a minute or something. Give me a warning."
You need a minute? To what, have someone wake you up from sleeping on the bench? Do some f'ing stretching, Eddy. I can't take it with this guy anymore. I don't know what to do but it's PAINFUL to watch. The New York Knicks. The most valuable NBA team. S U C K S night in, night out.
Telfjr

New York, NY

#3 Dec 27, 2007
Fire Isiah! Thats all I have to Say.
terraceinc

Haddam, CT

#4 Dec 27, 2007
IT MUST BE GREAT to be able to have a Multi million dollar paying job ; where you get on the job training.
That's what Isiah has as coach. GM, and Pres of the Knicks..........Steve Mills has also benefitted from one as Pres. of MSG. He introduced, hired, and rubber stamped everything Isiah has done in 4 years..........James Dolan is the best owner/employer in the world!!!

Last night Isiah's new secret Defensive starting five allowed the Magic to shoot 53% from the field, got outrebounded 45-37 and bloked ZERO shots..........BUT they scored 31 pts. in the 1st. qtr..........Maybe when he wants defense; he should go with his offensive group; and vice - versa !!!
Omar Minaya

Cranbury, NJ

#5 Dec 27, 2007
In Eddy's defense, he sat all of the first quarter because he picked up two quick fouls. That can be expected when you pick up two quick fouls. Then he sat all of the second, then the third quarter. I'm sure he didn't think he would play again unless someone else got into foul trouble or hurt. He was resigned to not playing again, which you should never do, and was suprised when called to go back in the game. I don't blame him really.

He is not the right player to bench. The Knicks were right when they labeled him as the franchise center last year and they need to treat him and build the team around him.

Jared Jeffries has continued to look like a complete bust since Isiah signed him. He was signed to be somewhat of a lock down defender and rebounder. His defensive play isn't that great.

Too bad David Lee isn't a great defender, he would be the perfect selflish compliment to Curry if he were. Unfortunately, as much as I love David Lee his one weakness is his defense isn't anything special. However, at least with him you see the effort and he doesn't give up on plays. He plays modest to good defense at best, however he makes things happens from time to time with his hustle and determination.
scottk

Westwood, NJ

#6 Dec 27, 2007
Knicks need to trade Curry immediately. He cannot handle the pressure of NY. I can't think of a team who could use a fat out of shape 7 footer who can't rebound or play D
jerry

Palm Coast, FL

#7 Dec 27, 2007
OK they lost, so what. The new lineup was a success, I was at the game and they competed and won for most of 3 quarters, then they got a little sloppy and tired. I believe the lineup change was good except for Q being in the starting lineup. I don't know if Balkman is hurt but he should be in. He would have helped stop both Turk and Lewis. Those guys beat the Knicks. Randolf played a good game, except for 2 or so bad shots. He passed the ball out to the 3 point zone and allowed for an easy shot. He needs to do more of that and his inside game will improve. Craw is one of my favorite players but he took some early outside shots early in the clock and wasn't really in the flow of the game at that time. He should look to move the ball early and then try to drive early to open up the outside shot later and also help him get on track with some easy free throws. Curry played with good intensity for the first couple of minutes and then was taken out. I like the writer of this article could not understand why he wasn't put back into the game, if nothing else than to give him a couple of minutes per game to keep warm. He was slow and not loosened up when he came back in. Otherwise I think the playing of Curry and Randolf was a success. Lee played well, only forced a couple and had them swatted away, but had a great steal and pass to Nate for a big score that turned the tide of the game at the time. Nate played fairly well and had about the right amount of time, except he could have driven to the hole and dished off more. He doesn't use his quickness to his full advantage. He could rip through defenses and put a lot of pressure on the centers and then dish to another big man. Jeffries played a quiet game, but he was effective defensively, filling holes and passing lanes. He made some poor long shots in the 2nd half, encouraged by his one make, it hasn't been his game, he needs to drive and dish or get open court baskets with his speed. Play to your strengths not into the other teams hands. I expected to see more of Collins, he needs to play for his play making and defense. Since he is a better ball handler than Jones, a better defender and a better rebounder/assist man I would expect that Isiah would try to utilize those skills by putting him ahead of Jones in the rotation, I liked the way Rose played with his intensity. He deserves to play 15 to 20 a game just for that quality, he is a defensive leader with his ferocity. Jeffries did not exhibit that type of defensive anger that needs to be there. Richardson must have a deal to play with Isiah, he just doesn't have the all around game that the Knicks need. He can't run, jump, finish the break etc. He needs to loose 20 lbs and be more athletic. A 6'6' power guard thats slow afoot just doesn't cut it. He can be used for certain players that he matches up against but only in certain situations. Balkman is much more dynamic than him and if he is healthy deserves to start. Not bad against a very good team on their home court....for 3 quarters. A couple more tweaks and we should have a decent rotation.
Fort Knix

Los Angeles, CA

#8 Dec 27, 2007
Telfjr wrote:
Fire Isiah! Thats all I have to Say.
Actually, with this season already a lost cause, the Knicks would probably be wise to keep Isiah. The players aren't going to play for him and the Knicks should finish at or near the bottom of the league. Get a top-3 pick, then fire him.

Of course, after the Knicks are assured of a high lottery pick, Isiah will start talking to Dolan: "Hey, with this guy (college player X), I think we can do this and this, then we'll be ready to contend next year." Dolan will nod his head (much the way he did with Glen Sather for 7 playoff-less seasons) and Isiah will get another year to run the show - with college player X emboldening the great chairman to raise ticket prices once again.

Only at Cablevision's MSG folks.
Larry Bird

Overland Park, KS

#9 Dec 27, 2007
I don't like to say "I told you so" but I told you so. You have to start at the top. I know its tough - Isiah was a magnificent player. But that doesn't mean he can carry over those qualities to coaching.

Isiah must go. The team appears to be too set up for failure and the only way to reverse this is to replace Isiah.

Scott Skiles anyone?
EdL

New York, NY

#10 Dec 27, 2007
Omar - Based on how painful his play has been and how badly out of shape he's been since the start of the season, I would say that Curry is exactly the right player to bench -just make sure he stays benched.

Fort Knix - the reason you don't want Isiah to stay any longer than it would take to say "You're fired" is that if he stays, he's going to make another trade to try and pull his chestnuts out of the fire. And any trades he makes are going to be for more of same - players who once looked like they might develop into something, and Isiah will be convinced HE'S the one to develop them. Why let him do any more damage than he's already done?
EdL

New York, NY

#11 Dec 27, 2007
Larry Bird wrote:
I don't like to say "I told you so" but I told you so. You have to start at the top. I know its tough - Isiah was a magnificent player. But that doesn't mean he can carry over those qualities to coaching.
Isiah must go. The team appears to be too set up for failure and the only way to reverse this is to replace Isiah.
Scott Skiles anyone?
Oh, admit it. You LOVE to say "I told you so".

Actually, I think the main reason Isiah has to go is that he hasn't got the first clue what kind of team he wants, what kinds of players he needs, or what players fit together the best. Also, his player-management skills are nonexistent, and his game coaching is awful. Other than that, I think he's doing just fine.
knicked

Los Angeles, CA

#12 Dec 27, 2007
jerry wrote:
OK they lost, so what. The new lineup was a success, I was at the game and they competed and won for most of 3 quarters, then they got a little sloppy and tired. I believe the lineup change was good except for Q being in the starting lineup. I don't know if Balkman is hurt but he should be in. He would have helped stop both Turk and Lewis. Those guys beat the Knicks. Randolf played a good game, except for 2 or so bad shots. He passed the ball out to the 3 point zone and allowed for an easy shot. He needs to do more of that and his inside game will improve. Craw is one of my favorite players but he took some early outside shots early in the clock and wasn't really in the flow of the game at that time. He should look to move the ball early and then try to drive early to open up the outside shot later and also help him get on track with some easy free throws. Curry played with good intensity for the first couple of minutes and then was taken out. I like the writer of this article could not understand why he wasn't put back into the game, if nothing else than to give him a couple of minutes per game to keep warm. He was slow and not loosened up when he came back in. Otherwise I think the playing of Curry and Randolf was a success. Lee played well, only forced a couple and had them swatted away, but had a great steal and pass to Nate for a big score that turned the tide of the game at the time. Nate played fairly well and had about the right amount of time, except he could have driven to the hole and dished off more. He doesn't use his quickness to his full advantage. He could rip through defenses and put a lot of pressure on the centers and then dish to another big man. Jeffries played a quiet game, but he was effective defensively, filling holes and passing lanes. He made some poor long shots in the 2nd half, encouraged by his one make, it hasn't been his game, he needs to drive and dish or get open court baskets with his speed. Play to your strengths not into the other teams hands. I expected to see more of Collins, he needs to play for his play making and defense. Since he is a better ball handler than Jones, a better defender and a better rebounder/assist man I would expect that Isiah would try to utilize those skills by putting him ahead of Jones in the rotation, I liked the way Rose played with his intensity. He deserves to play 15 to 20 a game just for that quality, he is a defensive leader with his ferocity. Jeffries did not exhibit that type of defensive anger that needs to be there. Richardson must have a deal to play with Isiah, he just doesn't have the all around game that the Knicks need. He can't run, jump, finish the break etc. He needs to loose 20 lbs and be more athletic. A 6'6' power guard thats slow afoot just doesn't cut it. He can be used for certain players that he matches up against but only in certain situations. Balkman is much more dynamic than him and if he is healthy deserves to start. Not bad against a very good team on their home court....for 3 quarters. A couple more tweaks and we should have a decent rotation.
Jerry, it's hard to tell if you're a big-time, overly-optimistic Knick fan, or a detached NBA fan with a scout's perspective.

Simply put, this team does not play to win. When the opponent makes a run, they invariably give in - game over. It makes no difference what player exhibits what skills; there is no competitive element to speak of with the Knicks, and so they will continue to lose at a robust clip.

By the way, I'm not sure you caught the graphic at the end of this game. It said this was the first home win for the Magic since November 24. Not exactly a "very good team on their home court," as you described them.
EdL

New York, NY

#13 Dec 27, 2007
jerry - my guess is that Curry didn't come back in because Randolph played the position better. He's a lot like Curry but better offensively, with more diversity in his shot selection and a willingness (as you pointed out) to kick the ball back out to the perimeter, something Curry wouldn't do last season even when double- or triple-teamed down low. He also consistently rebounds better than Curry. With a lead, I can well understand why Isiah decided not to put Curry back in. His mistake was putting in at the beginning of the fourth quarter, at which point they promptly lost the lead.

I also suspect that Balkman is less than 100% healthy, because I can't believe that Isiah is stupid enough not to play him otherwise. He would have been a better selection at the 2 spot, because last season when all the guards were hurt, Balkman saw quite a bit of time there. Then again, Isiah has shown an annoying tendency this year to lineup decisions that can only be based on emotional hunches.

But keep in mind, even if the revamped lineup is an improvement - and I think, with some tweaking, it might be - there's no way this is by any stretch of the imagination a contending team, even in the NBA Least. Of the two guys Isiah brought in to be his main men, one is absent (with no one begging him to come back, as the team definitely plays better without him) and the other shows up at every game looking like he'd rather be someplace else, preferably eating a good meal.

Given the constraints against getting rid of overpaid underproducing players, it's going to take quite a while to straighten out the mess.
Prince

Port Jefferson, NY

#14 Dec 27, 2007
Last night was a moderate success. I say if Zeke commits to change, they should start winning games soon.

Next game don't even play Curry, bench Q, hopefully Marbury wont come back either. Give Balkman and Chandler the minutes at the 3. I would try Jeffries out at the 5. Find minutes for Collins and Morris to see what they can do. Teach Randolph to PASS OUT OF DOUBLE TEAMS!!!
nyk9499

New Rochelle, NY

#16 Dec 27, 2007
Poor Isiaha, the guys gonna lose his job and he really dosent deserve to. Most of his players are very talented but are not smart basketball players. Curry should be ashamed of himself for his lack of intensity and fire on the defense. After evaluating his play over the first 25 games or so I think he should be getting 15-20 mins a night off the bench if he is producing continue to play him if not bench him and let lee zack or malik take his minutes. Crawford should be coming off the bench until he shows he can play some defense and be a solid distributer. Jarred Jefferies is your best bet at small forward right now because he hustles and takes pride in defense. Q always plays with heart even if his shot is not falling and knows how to contribute on defense. Randolph should not lose minutes because of Curry not being able to pull his weight. It is not that the tandom is not working it's that eddie is not pulling his weight. Lee should also be starting at power foward and nate robinson or marty collins should be playing point guard. You can tell if you watch the games the players that want to win and the players that just want to score. Start the ones that want to win and bench the ones that just want to score. it is all about heart and hustle.
Jerry

AOL

#17 Dec 27, 2007
EdL wrote:
jerry - my guess is that Curry didn't come back in because Randolph played the position better. He's a lot like Curry but better offensively, with more diversity in his shot selection and a willingness (as you pointed out) to kick the ball back out to the perimeter, something Curry wouldn't do last season even when double- or triple-teamed down low. He also consistently rebounds better than Curry. With a lead, I can well understand why Isiah decided not to put Curry back in. His mistake was putting in at the beginning of the fourth quarter, at which point they promptly lost the lead.
I also suspect that Balkman is less than 100% healthy, because I can't believe that Isiah is stupid enough not to play him otherwise. He would have been a better selection at the 2 spot, because last season when all the guards were hurt, Balkman saw quite a bit of time there. Then again, Isiah has shown an annoying tendency this year to lineup decisions that can only be based on emotional hunches.
But keep in mind, even if the revamped lineup is an improvement - and I think, with some tweaking, it might be - there's no way this is by any stretch of the imagination a contending team, even in the NBA Least. Of the two guys Isiah brought in to be his main men, one is absent (with no one begging him to come back, as the team definitely plays better without him) and the other shows up at every game looking like he'd rather be someplace else, preferably eating a good meal.
Given the constraints against getting rid of overpaid underproducing players, it's going to take quite a while to straighten out the mess.
Thanks EDL, you are one of the few in this blog with insightfull and well written comments.

Eddie Curry has been a better percentage low post player than Randolf and in my opinion has exhibited more restraint in his shot selection. Randolf did play a better game last night but he was shooting at a .421 clip, not that good. Some of his rebounds come off his own misses. Randolf is shooting at about .460 for his career and Curry about .540. I believe Eddie is somewhat discouraged by his play this season as Randolf has eaten into his time. That being said I liked the intensity of Randolf throughout the game. Eddie came out with a simlar intensity, but when you sit on the bench that long, you loose some of your steam. My point was that Eddie should have had some more minutes to keep in the flow of the game, so that he could be more usefull in the fourth quarter. One of the main reasons for running your athletic players early is to wear out the other team. Orlando isn't easy to wear out with their youth but it is a strategy that will work. Randolf was waning in the later part of the game, Eddie was fresh but too cold to make an immediate contribution.

As far as the Knicks not going to win a championship this year, we're on the same page. I do believe they can play .500 ball and better if they use their players wisely. Collins and Balkman are the key players to give more minutes to right now, reducing the minutes of Q and Jones/Marbury.

Marbury/Curry fresh in the fourth quarter with good attitudes are still going to help us win games. We just need to get the younger/hungrier players involved. Isiah has done a very good job in the draft (but should not have traded Trevor and especially Frye for aforementioned reasons).

Yes I'm optomistic, you have to be to be a Knick fan for 35 years. GO KNICKS !!!!!!!!!!
scottk

Philadelphia, PA

#18 Dec 27, 2007
Prince wrote:
Last night was a moderate success. I say if Zeke commits to change, they should start winning games soon.
Next game don't even play Curry, bench Q, hopefully Marbury wont come back either. Give Balkman and Chandler the minutes at the 3. I would try Jeffries out at the 5. Find minutes for Collins and Morris to see what they can do. Teach Randolph to PASS OUT OF DOUBLE TEAMS!!!
Maybe you can get a job as a comedian in the catskill mountains. I heard Kutshers is hiring for next Labor Day. You can take over for Shecky Greene. Maybe You can team up with Omar Minaya and become the new Allen and Rossi.
scottk

Philadelphia, PA

#19 Dec 27, 2007
Sorry! Too many clicks.
sick of knick

Philadelphia, PA

#20 Dec 28, 2007
jerry wrote:
OK they lost, so what. The new lineup was a success, I was at the game and they competed and won for most of 3 quarters, then they got a little sloppy and tired. I believe the lineup change was good except for Q being in the starting lineup. I don't know if Balkman is hurt but he should be in. He would have helped stop both Turk and Lewis. Those guys beat the Knicks. Randolf played a good game, except for 2 or so bad shots. He passed the ball out to the 3 point zone and allowed for an easy shot. He needs to do more of that and his inside game will improve. Craw is one of my favorite players but he took some early outside shots early in the clock and wasn't really in the flow of the game at that time. He should look to move the ball early and then try to drive early to open up the outside shot later and also help him get on track with some easy free throws. Curry played with good intensity for the first couple of minutes and then was taken out. I like the writer of this article could not understand why he wasn't put back into the game, if nothing else than to give him a couple of minutes per game to keep warm. He was slow and not loosened up when he came back in. Otherwise I think the playing of Curry and Randolf was a success. Lee played well, only forced a couple and had them swatted away, but had a great steal and pass to Nate for a big score that turned the tide of the game at the time. Nate played fairly well and had about the right amount of time, except he could have driven to the hole and dished off more. He doesn't use his quickness to his full advantage. He could rip through defenses and put a lot of pressure on the centers and then dish to another big man. Jeffries played a quiet game, but he was effective defensively, filling holes and passing lanes. He made some poor long shots in the 2nd half, encouraged by his one make, it hasn't been his game, he needs to drive and dish or get open court baskets with his speed. Play to your strengths not into the other teams hands. I expected to see more of Collins, he needs to play for his play making and defense. Since he is a better ball handler than Jones, a better defender and a better rebounder/assist man I would expect that Isiah would try to utilize those skills by putting him ahead of Jones in the rotation, I liked the way Rose played with his intensity. He deserves to play 15 to 20 a game just for that quality, he is a defensive leader with his ferocity. Jeffries did not exhibit that type of defensive anger that needs to be there. Richardson must have a deal to play with Isiah, he just doesn't have the all around game that the Knicks need. He can't run, jump, finish the break etc. He needs to loose 20 lbs and be more athletic. A 6'6' power guard thats slow afoot just doesn't cut it. He can be used for certain players that he matches up against but only in certain situations. Balkman is much more dynamic than him and if he is healthy deserves to start. Not bad against a very good team on their home court....for 3 quarters. A couple more tweaks and we should have a decent rotation.
Jerry, stick to your labor day telethon. As a matter of fact the Knick have as as much of a chance to be good as that telethon will will help find a cure for MD.
EdL

New York, NY

#21 Dec 28, 2007
[QUOTE who="JerryYes I'm optomistic, you have to be to be a Knick fan for 35 years. GO KNICKS !!!!!!!!!!QUOTE]

Almost 40 for me. I can't be optimistic, though. Not now. There's too much wrong that needs to be made right, and no one in the organization to do the job. The downfall really started back when Dolan forced Checketts to fire Grunfeld.

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