Marlins' loss thrills crowd

[Suffering Miami Fan]

AmazinMan wrote:

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You're just angry because your weak team can't catch up to the Amazin Mets! So go hop onto the Mets bandwagon over here! METS ROCK! Dodgers, Phillies, Marlins, Cardinals, Cubs, Rays, Yankees, Red Sox, Reds, Orioles, Royals, Giants, D'BACKS, Astros ETC all SUCK!!! GO METS!!

Yeah, we all know that a 4 game lead held by the Mets is insurmountable. I guess you were not a Mets fan last year, because they have choked away much bigger leads.

[UnbelievableFL]

Marlins Fan wrote:

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While what you are saying may be true, what you are missing is the feeling of fear that fans have. Fear of getting really attached to a team (that may be moved or broken up) because of a lack of trust of our owners and a bad history. Put that together with bad weather and a lack of a long storied history and you get poor attendance.

So what you have is a self-fulfilling prophesy. Fans are worried that management might tear apart the team. Management tries to allay those fears by spending money to keep the team competitive three years in a row. Fans still do not show up in significant numbers despite a WS win and two additional winning seasons because of a perceived "fear" of what management "might" do. By staying away, they force management to cut payroll because attendance (despite increases) is still not close to being sufficient to keep the team together. Don't you see that's a never-ending cycle?

[UnbelievableFL]

Suffering Miami Fan wrote:

<quoted text>...And nobody here is expecting him to lose money. He can use the free money that the media and revenue sharing and ticket sales and player gear sold gives to him. Combined with the equity increase on the team (150 million in the past 8 years, with more on the way once a stadium is in place), Loria's equity increased significantly during his time here. His 12 million investment in the Expos is now worth over 20 times that. He can use some of that revenue sharing money on the players to increase fan loyalty.

Could Loria spend more money on payroll than he has the last couple of years? Absolutely. Could he have spent enough to keep fans happy without losing money? No way in hell. Want proof? Just look at the fact that Marlins fans are still upset about losing Pudge and trading Lee. After the 2005 season, owners would have had to make more drastic moves than that to get payroll in line with attendance.

I think it's entirely reasonable for the owners to believe they wouldn't have been able to make the fans happy anyway, so why not make drastic cuts and start saving for a new stadium - a stadium that is essential to keeping the team here in South Florida.

Suffering Miami Fan wrote:

<quoted text>...<quoted text>They also responded with double the attanedance they had before that, and were increasing. Building loyalty takes time, and overcoming the negative impressions he had brought from Montreal would also take time. He chose instead to live down to those expectations, even WITH revenue sharing more than compensating.

Again, even with an increase in attendance, the Marlins were 3rd from last in all of MLB in 2005. They made strides, but not nearly enough to cover the payroll that would have been needed to keep the 2005 team intact the following year. Cuts were inevitable, even with revenue sharing.

You also mentioned increase in equity of the franchise. That has nothing to do with cash flow and payroll. Just ask anyone who owned a home in South Florida prior to 2005 what good an increase in equity did for them, and how wise it was for them to borrow against the increase in equity.

[AmazinMan]

Suffering Miami Fan wrote:

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Yeah, we all know that a 4 game lead held by the Mets is insurmountable. I guess you were not a Mets fan last year, because they have choked away much bigger leads.

Trust me, that will not happen this year. At the rate the Phillies, Braves and Marlins (AKA the Three Stooges) have been playing lately, the Mets have made it impossible for you to catch us. LETS GO METS! Another win for the Amazins tonight!

[UnbelievableFL]

Suffering Miami Fan wrote:

<quoted text>I accept that. Nobody here says that 15K is fine. But the 29K they were getting WAS acceptible. Sice attendance dropped after both firesales, I think that it is fair to blame the firesales for the drop in attendance.

Of course the firesales led to a drop in attendance. But what led to the 2nd firesale? A lack of attendance to support the payroll needed to keep the core of the 2005 team intact for 2006.

Suffering Miami Fan wrote:

<quoted text>I am not rewriting history. No matter when they had the firesale, it was the wrong message to send to the fans, after saying that there would be no firesale. That was a Saban-like lie from Loria.

Loria assumed that if he gave the fans what they wanted, they would show up in sufficient numbers and he would get a new stadium deal. I think that was a fair assumption for him to make. Show me one other WS champion that was 3rd from last in attendance the year they won the championship, 5th from last in attendance the following year and 3rd from last the year after despite continuing to field teams with a winning record. It's never happened before to my knowledge. Add to that the fact that Loria thought he would be able to get a stadium deal put together which is essential to keeping baseball in S. Florida.

Suffering Miami Fan wrote:

<quoted text>So then you understand those of us that are doing the same. I dislike the owners' actions (hate is not the word I would use), but choose to remain loyal to the team, just like I do with the Dolphins after their post-Marino slide. The difference is that the Marlins do not have the Cubs history, and therefore, do not have the same loyalty. I accept that, and I do not attempt to rewrite those facts.

Agreed.
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Suffering Miami Fan wrote:

<quoted text>It was still more than double what it was when they were a sub .500 team with no hope. It was a foundation to build on, that they chose to do away with. They have to make an extra effort to overcome their negative impact on fan loyalty. I am not alone in this opinion.
http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/Spring07/Jone...
"And while the team was extremely successful in getting value in their trades, the firesale angered skeptical fans. Many Marlins fans believe that as soon as the team competes for a championship again, the owner will trade all the players away again in an effort to cut payroll."
Notice his comparison with the Mariners. Many years of under 20K in attendance.

As I said, I am not denying that firesales are going to have a negative effect on attendance, but you have to look at what led to the firesale - lack of sufficient attendance and lack of a stadium deal. Blame the 1st firesale on the owners all you want, but they are no longer here. But blaming the 2nd one on Loria is ridiculous.

[Suffering Miami Fan]

UnbelievableFL wrote:

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Of course the firesales led to a drop in attendance. But what led to the 2nd firesale? A lack of attendance to support the payroll needed to keep the core of the 2005 team intact for 2006.
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Loria assumed that if he gave the fans what they wanted, they would show up in sufficient numbers and he would get a new stadium deal. I think that was a fair assumption for him to make. Show me one other WS champion that was 3rd from last in attendance the year they won the championship, 5th from last in attendance the following year and 3rd from last the year after despite continuing to field teams with a winning record. It's never happened before to my knowledge. Add to that the fact that Loria thought he would be able to get a stadium deal put together which is essential to keeping baseball in S. Florida.
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Agreed.
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As I said, I am not denying that firesales are going to have a negative effect on attendance, but you have to look at what led to the firesale - lack of sufficient attendance and lack of a stadium deal. Blame the 1st firesale on the owners all you want, but they are no longer here. But blaming the 2nd one on Loria is ridiculous.

Thanks for the reasonable discussion.

I still hold Loria responsible, because he should have known what he was getting into when he bought into this team. And his 18%(21M/122M) of total revenue going back into the team is the smallest by far, but we can hope that he either changes his M.O. after the stadium is built, or sells the team to someone who will. Marlins' fans will be stuck in a "wait and see" mode until then.

[UnbelievableFL]

Suffering Miami Fan wrote:

<quoted text>Thanks for the reasonable discussion.
I still hold Loria responsible, because he should have known what he was getting into when he bought into this team.

What, an unreasonable fanbase? Just kidding (sort of).

Suffering Miami Fan wrote:

<quoted text> And his 18%(21M/122M) of total revenue going back into the team is the smallest by far, but we can hope that he either changes his M.O. after the stadium is built, or sells the team to someone who will. Marlins' fans will be stuck in a "wait and see" mode until then.

I am not disputing that he cut payroll more than was necessary. I can understand why he did it though, because he wasn't going to keep fans happy either way, so why not save as much as possible now towards the new stadium? That's the positive. The negative is that it makes fans distrust him more. The truth is, there was never much trust to begin with, so I think it's reasonable to believe the positive outweighs the negative. That's the chance he's taking anyway.