What atheists can't refute -

What atheists can't refute -

There are 455 comments on the Baltimore Sun story from Oct 28, 2007, titled What atheists can't refute -. In it, Baltimore Sun reports that:

Religion has faced formidable foes in its history. But atheism hasn't generally been one of them - until today.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Baltimore Sun.

JR-Socal

Santa Monica, CA

#423 Nov 30, 2007
Two words simply define why there is no god. Indianapolis Colts.
phil

Baltimore, MD

#424 Nov 30, 2007
I think, if you are determined to use logic to prove God does not exist, then you will succeed. Your mind has already been conditioned to prove what you are intending. The faith element is another dimension from logic, and does not need to be proved. Either you believe or you don't, and that is dictated by the some total of your life experiences and what, as Christians would say, your calling.

This calling is no different than an inchoate gnawing in your being to pursue a course of spirituality, similar to the pursuit of a vocation or any great drving desire that compels you onward. It cannot be explained, or even reasoned. And maybe that is what Disouza meant, you can't use logic to explain faith, and neither can you arrive at faith through logic.

Well, let the missives fly...
DC law dog

Mclean, VA

#425 Nov 30, 2007
<<You left out the resurrection. That is the historical event where Christ revealed who he was. >>

No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts.

All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. Devastating to christian historians, there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus got written well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings.

Although one can argue that many of these writings come from fraud or interpolations, even if these sources did not come from interpolations, they could still not serve as reliable evidence for a historical Jesus, simply because all sources derive from hearsay accounts.

where is any resurrection mentioned anywhere outside of the bible, goober??
DC law dog

Mclean, VA

#426 Nov 30, 2007
<<I've said this before, but show me an athiest scientist and I'll show you someone who had good grades in science, but not of a scientific mind. >>

Yes.. and you still sound like a gibbering drooling idiot!
Right Wing Conspiracy

Waldorf, MD

#427 Nov 30, 2007
DC law dog wrote:
<<You left out the resurrection. That is the historical event where Christ revealed who he was. >>
No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts.
All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. Devastating to christian historians, there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus got written well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings.
Although one can argue that many of these writings come from fraud or interpolations, even if these sources did not come from interpolations, they could still not serve as reliable evidence for a historical Jesus, simply because all sources derive from hearsay accounts.
where is any resurrection mentioned anywhere outside of the bible, goober??
Well, you're asking me for info I'm not a scholar on. So instead of looking a bunch of stuff up here is what I'll give you. The oldest book of the New Testament is Acts which is letters written by Paul who knew the original Christians. The historical Christ is also mentioned by Josephus.

A place I can reccomend to start for better answers on the validity of the evidence is a book called "The Case For Christ" written by Lee Strobel, and go from there.
Right Wing Conspiracy

Waldorf, MD

#428 Nov 30, 2007
DC law dog wrote:
<<I've said this before, but show me an athiest scientist and I'll show you someone who had good grades in science, but not of a scientific mind. >>
Yes.. and you still sound like a gibbering drooling idiot!
And maybe you think you look intelligent by not including the explanation of my comment and then calling me a name. Wow, that really proves your point - lol
Phil

United States

#429 Nov 30, 2007
DC law dog wrote:
<<You left out the resurrection. That is the historical event where Christ revealed who he was. >>
No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts.
All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. Devastating to christian historians, there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus got written well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings.
Although one can argue that many of these writings come from fraud or interpolations, even if these sources did not come from interpolations, they could still not serve as reliable evidence for a historical Jesus, simply because all sources derive from hearsay accounts.
where is any resurrection mentioned anywhere outside of the bible, goober??
Taken from that context, how can we prove the existence of anybody? Maybe Leonardo da Vinci did not exist, and he was really an impostor. You can't prove he existed or didn't exist. Usually 4 eyewitness accounts would tend to mean something, but you readily dismiss that by merely stating they were fraudulent or hearsay. Isn't that pure conjecture and assumption? Most of recorded history hangs on the balance of a few manuscripts or historical references, and can be challenged based on your reasoning. Maybe no history has occurred, becasue what can we really prove if eyewitness accounts can't be believed, Herod's historical attempt to snuff out the prophecy, the testimony to paul, the 100 manuscripts (as stated previously, 10 is considered high confirmation).

You are determined not to believe, and as a result, you will not. It's that simple. You are spending way too much time convincing yourself of nothingness, and what will you have when you are done: nothing.

“Jesus is coming ”

Since: Oct 07

Colorado springs

#430 Nov 30, 2007
GoodGrief wrote:
<quoted text>
SoG, are you implying that the continental plates don't drift around on great big frickin' pools of magma, and that subduction zones do not exist? That mountains on the borders of continental shelves were always mountains, and are not mountains because one is pushing under the other, shoving the land up a millimeter at a time?
Are you implying that all the scientists who have documented continental drift have been lying?
I'm just curious. Maybe it's just the example you chose ...
YOU can take the same science and prove the history of the bible and Jesus oh i am sorry you have a double standard. FAITH IN NOTHING NEWS AT 11 You do not even have a standard to base nothing on. Oh i am sorry you do but it is in the bible look under antichrist children of the god of this world. OR how to make youself a god, look under pride satan set the example.

Since: Mar 07

Springfield, KY

#431 Nov 30, 2007
It is so easy to discount any Supreme Being sitting there at your computer, warm, relaxed and full of yourself. I just wonder what you will be thinking at the time of your demise, all alone and scared.
Ocean56

AOL

#432 Nov 30, 2007
Son of God wrote:
<quoted text>
YOU can take the same science and prove the history of the bible and Jesus oh i am sorry you have a double standard. FAITH IN NOTHING NEWS AT 11 You do not even have a standard to base nothing on. Oh i am sorry you do but it is in the bible look under antichrist children of the god of this world. OR how to make youself a god, look under pride satan set the example.
Since atheists don't believe in ANY gods, this is just more religionist idiocy from you.

Ocean
IMAGINARY gods have NO jurisdiction
phil

United States

#433 Nov 30, 2007
It is amazing how even serial killers, who flaunt their lack of fear and their wanton disregard of life, cling so stubbornly to life when they are caught and convicted. The atheists will see the borne out in their own deaths - "But if we only had known. We would have repented." But we all know that to not be true. We make choices, just as Milton depicted Satan's choice in Paradise Lost. Image Satan's state (even if you deny his existence) after the fall, where he knew he could not turn back and undo what he had done. But some of you still have time to get a second chance.

The message I would have to most atheists: "Are you prepared to be wrong? And if you are, will you accept the outcome willingly, or will you snivel for mercy like your serial killers?"

For the atheist, why would you even want to seek something that was greater than you, something you can not explain through logic? Be happy in this fleeting existence, and somehow reconcile the senselessness of your lives with the belief that you can wither away faith with logic. Once you have convinced yourself that there is nothing else apart from the miseries and caprices of your current state, do not be introspective and realize you have consigned yourself to the level of an animal, only concerned with the current state and not of any higher purpose. If you start to question there maybe more, you maybe isolated by your atheistic friends and may find that your only solace maybe be those that you may despise now.

“Jesus is coming ”

Since: Oct 07

Colorado springs

#434 Nov 30, 2007
Religion of an athiest have faith in nothing or you are stupid rule #1. Rule #2 refer to rule #1 Rule #3 I am a free thinker Think like me or you are stupid. Dont ask me to think about what you think i am free from rules or imaginary gods like mine Rule #4 athiests are gods and make there own rules if you dont you are stupid. Oh boy that was fun. ha ha
Jesus is the way the truth and the life. You must be born again. Seed sown.
GoodGrief

New York, NY

#435 Dec 3, 2007
Son of God wrote:
YOU can take the same science and prove the history of the bible and Jesus
Alas, this isn't true. One can't disprove, based on historical data, that the mountains are rising, and that the plates are shifting. If you can show me a geologist who can, please, I'd like to read the theory and the proof offered in its support.

One can't prove that there was a whopping great Ark, with Tyrannosaurs eating veggies next to lambs.

One can't prove that Jesus was born of a virgin.

One can't prove that loaves were turned to fishes.

One can't prove that God spoke to Moses from a burning bush, or that stone tablets were handed down on the Mount.

Alas. As I've said before, I'd -love- to believe this stuff, just as I'd love to believe in a literal Kali (disturbing as that would be, it would at least say "I'm here for something.") Belief in anything would, at the least, make life a lot less stressful. But wanting to believe does not provide a foundation for belief.
Son of God wrote:
oh i am sorry you have a double standard.
Supporting evidence, please? Where has anyone here quoted any information that I could go look at and report back on? Where has anyone here provided references that would document their case, outside of the Good Book itself?

Show me my double standard, please, SOG.
Son of God wrote:
FAITH IN NOTHING NEWS AT 11 You do not even have a standard to base nothing on.
Not true. I was raised in a loose religious faith. More than a couple of the Commandments I find to be very valuable. But they'd be equally valuable without the presumptively divine inspiration/authorage.

My standard is this: As much as possible, do no harm; as much as possible, try to help others.

It's one that's not always easy to live with or by, but it's one that a lot of Christians (and Jews, and Muslims, and Hindus, and everyone else) can agree with in principle, and it's one that lets me feel like I'm contributing to the greater good and not to the greater diminishment of society.

Just because you don't recognize the validity of 'standards' that arise from other than the Divine, doesn't mean that those standards don't exist, or that they're invalid.
Son of God wrote:
Oh i am sorry you do but it is in the bible look under antichrist children of the god of this world. OR how to make youself a god, look under pride satan set the example.
So, your book--which I have in this forum said I consider largely a work of, at best, wishful thinking--should nonetheless serve as my definition?

You're so silly.
GoodGrief

New York, NY

#436 Dec 3, 2007
KY Bob wrote:
It is so easy to discount any Supreme Being sitting there at your computer, warm, relaxed and full of yourself. I just wonder what you will be thinking at the time of your demise, all alone and scared.
On the off chance that this was directed at me (attributions make things easier)...

I am, indeed, warm and relaxed. Not really full of myself at all, though I do have my moments (as do you, and we all, I'm sure).

I'd prefer not to die--strongly, strongly prefer it--but I'm comfortable with the fact that it's going to happen one day. When I'm on my deathbed, which will hopefully be several decades from now, I expect I'll look back and hope that I left having done more good, on balance, than ill. Whether the Invisible Sky Emperor approves of my beliefs and/or actions, I expect, won't enter into it at all.

And before you ask, yes, I have indeed been faced with the deaths of loved ones and dear friends alike. On more than a couple of occasions*, I've been faced with my own as well. At no time did I find myself asking for higher help or understanding. Not since I was old enough to start realizing that the Sky Emperor is not only naked, but non-existent...

*twice in traffic and once on the side of a mountain as an adult, and once or twice more; once while contemplating suicide as a stupid just-past-teenager.
GoodGrief

New York, NY

#437 Dec 3, 2007
phil wrote:
"Are you prepared to be wrong?...Will you accept the outcome willingly, or will you snivel for mercy like your serial killers?"
I like the false parallel between atheists and serial killers, Phil. Silly, but nicely done.

Murderers generally murder, in my opinion, because they're fundamentally broken. To kill, they build false realities in which their actions are justifiable. Atheists, though, generally cast off false realities.

Is there overlap? Sure. But is there overlap between Christianity and serial killers, too? Yup.

But to directly answer your question,-this- atheist will go out fighting for every breath... but with no regrets beyond the natural ones.
phil wrote:
Why would [the atheist] even want to seek something...greater than you
I'm comfortable with existential life. But it's awful for a whole lot of people. We die with no notice for no reason. We're cruel. We take advantage of one another. And then there are droughts, storms, famines...

Wouldn't it be -amazing- if it was for some Reason? Wouldn't it be -terrific- to guarantee that everyone who hurts in this world will be comforted in the next?

Of course it would.

I want there to be a God in the same way I want there to be a Santa Claus. Who doesn't want a real Santa? Living in a North Pole hideaway, dedicated to fulfilling every kid's wish for happiness? C'mon, who -doesn't- want that?
And yet one can't help but realize at a fairly young age that Santa isn't real, either.
phil wrote:
[S]omehow reconcile the senselessness of your lives with the belief that you can wither away faith with logic.
Can you please help me make sense of this bit? I'm missing the connection.
phil wrote:
Once you have convinced yourself...do not be introspective and realize you have consigned yourself to the level of an animal, only concerned with the current state and not of any higher purpose. If you start to question...you maybe isolated by your atheistic friends and may find that your only solace maybe be those that you may despise now.
Wow. And I thought -I- was the cynical one.

In point of fact, I'm friends with a number of religious folks, and a number of atheists. The atheists are more than a little like me--we pretty much all think that it'd be wonderful if there was a Higher Purpose and a Higher Power... but there ain't.

Your "consigned yourself to the level of an animal" bit--you're not getting what atheism is, Phil. At least not what it is for me and those who share my version.

It's not "Oh, poor me!" It's "Wow, look at the neatness that is life. What can we do with it?"

Just because you think you were created whole, and we think we grew up from bacteria, doesn't mean that we're all that different. I'm sure you go through life doing the best you can for the people you care about. You probably give to charities to help others who aren't as fortunate as you. You probably walk past the beggar on the street wishing you knew if s/he was really homeless or a scam artist. Us, too.

The difference is that atheists do things without worrying about God judging our behaviors. We have right and wrong; we just don't say God said so. We have hearts and brains, consciousness and compassion, just as you do.
phil wrote:
those that you may despise now.
For the record, I, for one, don't despise you, Phil. Nor do I even mildly dislike anyone who's posted here. I think the faithful are -wrong-; I think you're hoping for something that's kinda goofy... but I don't dislike anyone here, much less despise them.

I hope the atheists can expect the same from your side...
GoodGrief

New York, NY

#438 Dec 3, 2007
Son of God wrote:
Religion of an athiest have faith in nothing or you are stupid rule #1. Rule #2 refer to rule #1 Rule #3 I am a free thinker Think like me or you are stupid. Dont ask me to think about what you think i am free from rules or imaginary gods like mine Rule #4 athiests are gods and make there own rules if you dont you are stupid. Oh boy that was fun. ha ha
Jesus is the way the truth and the life. You must be born again. Seed sown.
Or we could try something a little more workable:

1. Believe in the fact that you only get one shot. While you're here, don't break anything; someone's going to have to fix it, and you'll be dead. What you leave behind as your "work" is what you will be remembered for. You're not going anywhere except back into the dirt, so make sure what you do while you're here counts.

2. See Rule #1, particularly the part about not breaking anything.

3. I am a free thinker, as much as my biology and psychology permit. Present your evidence and conjecture; I'll present mine. At the end of the day we'll probably still disagree, but at least we'll understand one another.

4. Whether others believe in God(s) isn't important to me; what injustices they commit in the name of those God(s) is. When theists try to pass laws that abridge my rights based on their religious beliefs (as opposed being based on a rational attempt to contribute to a strong society based on humanity's needs), resist. When theists shout about their Way being the only Way, point out other Ways. When theists engulf the vulnerable and condition them to believe in imaginary beings, point out that the beings are imaginary.

Huh. You're right. That was fun.

“Jesus is coming ”

Since: Oct 07

Colorado springs

#439 Dec 3, 2007
GoodGrief wrote:
<quoted text>
Or we could try something a little more workable:
1. Believe in the fact that you only get one shot. While you're here, don't break anything; someone's going to have to fix it, and you'll be dead. What you leave behind as your "work" is what you will be remembered for. You're not going anywhere except back into the dirt, so make sure what you do while you're here counts.
2. See Rule #1, particularly the part about not breaking anything.
3. I am a free thinker, as much as my biology and psychology permit. Present your evidence and conjecture; I'll present mine. At the end of the day we'll probably still disagree, but at least we'll understand one another.
4. Whether others believe in God(s) isn't important to me; what injustices they commit in the name of those God(s) is. When theists try to pass laws that abridge my rights based on their religious beliefs (as opposed being based on a rational attempt to contribute to a strong society based on humanity's needs), resist. When theists shout about their Way being the only Way, point out other Ways. When theists engulf the vulnerable and condition them to believe in imaginary beings, point out that the beings are imaginary.
Huh. You're right. That was fun.
I told you so! love in the lord a son of GOD
Dino

United States

#440 Dec 3, 2007
To all you non-believers out there in cyberland: Someday, every head will bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord of Lords and King of Kings. You don't have to believe, but the difference will be an eternity seperated by Christ's eternal love. Hell is not a place where you would want to spend eternity. That would be truly sad.
GoodGrief

New York, NY

#441 Dec 4, 2007
Son of God wrote:
I told you so!
Actually, no, you didn't.

Your version of me: "Have faith in nothing or you are stupid."

Mine: Believe in doing good works.

Yours: Think like me or you're stupid. Don't ask me to think about what you think.

Mine: Let's talk.

Yours: Atheists think they're gods and make their own rules.

Mine: You're very welcome to follow your own rules, but don't try to impose on everyone else the ones that would be bad for society in general.

So where did you "tell me so," exactly?
GoodGrief

New York, NY

#442 Dec 4, 2007
Dino wrote:
Someday, every head will bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord of Lords and King of Kings.


Hey, Dino. Welcome to the chat.

A thought. The above...
Dino wrote:
You don't have to believe,
...seems at odds with this. Which do you believe?

Do you think people who are never exposed to the Word will nonetheless one day "bow down" and "confess" Jesus' supremacy? How's that going to work, exactly?
Dino wrote:
but the difference will be an eternity seperated by Christ's eternal love.
Thanks for not telling us we'll be burning in a lake of fire. That's comforting.

Arguably, us atheists are -already- separated from Christ's eternal love. So what's the difference going to be?

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