1973 Silver Shadow

[ray]

I bought this car from Florida and while it definitely has its share of problems, is still straight and solid enough to restore. Trouble is, I don't know a thing about these old cars and could use any help that is available. I want to rebuild the brakes since a partial brake warning light is on and there is a grinding noise when turning the front wheels . The car seems to sit a lot lower on the front end and was wondering if this car would have some sort of hydraulic leveling system. It sure rides soft, but seems spongy on cornering. The floor pans are rotted out in some places and I want to take out the seats, carpet and weld in new steel, do it right. Can floor pans that fit this car be found in the auto aftermarket? How about the brake parts, rotors and calipers? Anybody know any place that rebuilds the calipers? I don't know if they need rebuilding, but expecting the worse when I take all the brake equipment off. I would also like to put in new wheel bearings. The car shows 81, 000 miles and the odometer works, but on such an old car, may be 181,000. Any body know of any "problem" areas I can expect from the engine or tranny? Engine fires up quickly with no smoke. Also, the rear electric windows and locks do not work and also the radio electric antenna. The VIN # by the front windshield dash is hard to see one of the numbers and my DMV is wondering if there is another area in the car that has the VIN #. We looked all over but could not find one. Any help on these questions and probably a hundred more when i start rebuilding this car would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Ray

[Jan Forrest]

Taking your questions in the order you asked them ...
The brake light is informing you of low pressure in one of the accumulators. This can usually be fixed by having them recharged with pure nitrogen to 1,000 psi - not normally a DIY proposition. Otherwise the accumulators may need overhauling or even replacing. Either job IS a DIY possibility, but they will still need professionally recharging after installation. Even new ones are delivered in an uncharged state.
Continued ...

[Jan Forrest]

Grinding noise when turning the front wheel?
Do you mean rotating the wheel or turning the steering wheel? If the former then the front discs are very likely covered in corrosion. If the car has been stood for any length of time this becomes a certainty. Depending on the severity you might get away with removing it with a wire brush attachment on an electric drill or angle grinder. Otherwise you will have to have them checked for thickness to see if there is enough 'meat' on them to have them reground.

The suspension on the Shadow (1 and 2) and several other models is loosely based on the Citroen hydraulic setup. Lack of hydraulic pressure will allow the car to settle onto its springs which, if old and sagging, will result in excessive body roll. Unlike the Citroens, the hydraulic system is only there to adjust the ride height when carrying extra loads in the form of large passengers and/or heavy luggage. On the other hand if this is an 'early' car it may have roll sensors on the front end which can only make this worse. As they were deleted on 'later' models it is not unusual for them to be disconnected to firm up the front end. On the same subject: A good rule of thumb is to check if you can just slide your hand on top of the rear tyre without losing a knuckle or two on the rear wheel arch (engine not running and hydraulics exhausted ie. BOTH brake warning lights on). If new longer springs have been fitted it is not unusual for the rear to be higher than this. The cure is simple: You just load the boot (trunk) with about 150-200 kilos of weight and ride around with it there until the springs settle in, then you can remove the weight. If the front end is unususally low then you may need new springs. BE WARNED!!! The front springs are under considerable compression and a special tool is required to safely release them and reinstall the new ones!!!
Continued ...

[Jan Forrest]

I am not aware of any aftermarket - or even factory - floorpan panels being available. However any competent body repairer should be able to form new ones that will fit and return it to full strength.
Back to brakes: A full overhaul is a lot easier than you might think - as long as none of the bleed screws or other unions don't seize in the threads and then shear off. The normal way to help avoiding this is to get some modelling clay, form little coffer dams around the unions and fill them with freeing oil then leave them for several days for it to slowly seep into the threads. Unfortunately I forgot this when I stripped the brakes from my 1976 SS1 and had to have the rear brakes professionally rebuilt, although I did the front ones myself. Although all the flexible pipes will likely need replacing, the rigid pipes probably won't (unless they've been damaged) as they were made from "Cunifer 10" copper-based material at the factory. While on the subject; brake components should be readily available as the front calipers (2 on each wheel) and pads are the same as fitted to several other cars of the same era - Ford Cortina, Capri, Datsun 180b-200b, etc and some Holdens - being standard Girling Type 16.
DO NOT put LHM green hydraulic fluid in the reservoirs! It will destroy all the seals and flexible pipes in a very short time. You can top up with DOT 3 or 4 in the short term and even use it to flush the system after rebuilding it, but for a better ride you should only use RR363 hydraulic fluid after this.

[Jan Forrest]

Damn and blast! There's a big chunk of what I wrote missing.
It goes along the lines:
If the car has been stood for any length of time - months rather than weeks - then the discs (rotors) will be quite rusty. With luck you might get away with removing it by using a wire brush attachement on an electric drill or angle grinder. If not there should be enough 'meat' in them to have them skimmed/reground.
Brakes are easily overhauled as a DIY proposition as long as you take care with the bleed screws and other unions. They can readily seize in the threads and shear off when attempting to remove them. To reduce this try to form coffer dams around them with modelling clay which you should fill with freeing/easing oil and allow it to soak in for a few days first. The front calipers (2 per wheel) are easiest as they are standard Girling Type 16 which were fitted to several cars of the same era - Ford Cortina, Ford Capri, Datsun 180B and 200B and several Holdens. Both the overhaul components and pads are widely available and don't cost the earth. Even components for the 4-pot rear calipers can be easily sourced without taking out a second mortgage. If you have difficulty sourcing new handbrake pads the old ones can often be relined although the cost will be pretty much the same. The handbrake cables and hinges will need cleaning and lubricating at this point as they are exposed to a lot of water spray and can also seize up. Also you will probably want to change all the flexible pipes as they do crack through age eventually. Rigid pipes rarely fail as they were made from copper-based "Cunifer 10" at the factory.

The same hydraulic pumps and accumulators are also responsible for the self-levelling suspension. If it's 'playing up' at the front then just disconnect the level sensors as they're more troble than they're worth and were deleted on later models.
Does the front sit low, or the rear sit high? Check that you can slide your hand on top of the rear tyre without bending it much under the wheel arch. Do this with the engine off and both hydraulic accumulators fully discharged (both brake warning lights illuminated). If it turns out that the front end is sagging then you will need access to a 'special tool' as the front springs are under considerable compression (a couple of tons!) and stretch about 2 feet as they're removed.

Any decent body repair shop should be able to fabricate new floorpan panels that will be just as strong as any aftermarket panel, although I'm not aware of there being any.

One important point: There are several grease nipples on the front suspension that require attention at monthly intervals. The nipples are unique to Rolls Royce and need to be used with an adaptor. Conversely you can just replace them with standard non-metric nipples as the threads are the same.

Tht's all for now ...

[ray]

Jan, thanks for the help. I replied earlier but for some reason my e-mail didn't get through.

My Rolls was built in November, 1973 VIN.# SRB 17336. I am putting it up on heavy duty car jacks and will take out the brakes and see if I can resurface the rotorsa and put new aftermarket pads in. Hope the calipers are in good shape.

Not too sure what an accumulator is, but the car has about 3 1/2 inches (8 cm) of room from the top of the front tire to the bottom of the top fender. The rear tires have about twice that distance which makes the car look low in the front.

The car rides very softly (first time I ever rode in a Rolls) but it is quite spongy going around corners. I hope I don't have to replace the springs in the front. Something i would never try myself and probably would have to buy the genuine Rolls springs and they would want a pretty penny for them.

Since the car no longer needs to be smog tested because of the year made, I was considering putting a dual exhaust system in it for better engine performance.

I hope it is just dirty contacts in the switches for the electric windows and power antenna.

I should have time next week to start taking the brakes apart. I will replace all the flexible rubber brake lines and be sure to use the correct brake fluid. I would like to do the flushing with regular brake fluid but not the type you warned me about. Where can you purchase the Rolls recommended brake fluid at?

Good tip about building a dam around stubborn joints and soaking them with penetrating oil for a couple of days.(before you shear them off with brute force).

Thanks again for the tips...Ray

[Jan Forrest]

Response Part 1:
As I put earlier: The brakes are an easy overhaul. You just need to contact any decent brake specialist and order the parts. You won't know if you just need new pistons or whole calipers until they are off and you've had the chance to examine them. As long as the corrosion inside the cylinders doesn't go below the seal groove then the calipers will be still servicable. The same goes for the pistons, although I replaced mine as I thought "Better safe than stuffed into the back of a truck". Don't forget to tell them that the front calipers are just Girling Type 16 so they can supply the parts, or even whole calipers, at a much lower cost than they would charge for 'genuine Rolls Royce parts'! By the way ... The handbrake pads are tiny at 4cms X 5cms including mounting lugs and are held in situ with 2 sizes of springs that don't normally come with new ones. Also the friction material isn't meant to be parallel to the backing plates as it runs from <>10mm at the front down to 3mm at the rear!
While you're overhauling the brakes don't forget to open the 'rat-trap' under the right hand front seat. It's covered with a largeish plate held on with 20 or so cross-head screws. Be prepared to fit new slightly larger screws as the originals will be in poor condition after 36 years. In there you will find the brake master cylinder, brake pressure distribution valves and the 'deceleration conscious valve' which RR owners call the 'G-valve'. Rather than overhaul the master cylinder you should replace it with one meant for a Land Rover Series 1. They're stronger, give more feel and cost about the same as an overhaul kit.(The original is identical to the one fitted to the Morris Minor and is pretty pathetic at stopping the car - even at a walking pace - and is only there to give 'feel' to the pedal.) The pressure distribution valves cannot be overhauled as they do not contain any seals as they work by being machined to extremely tight tolerances. The G-valve however MUST be overhauled with new seals. Don't forget to bleed these items first after the overhaul otherwise you'll never get a 'good pedal'.
The accumulators are roughly spherical and can be found low down on the right side of the engine, just under the hydraulic fluid reservoirs. At the top of each there is a pressure switch which feeds the brake warning light for each circuit. These can fail, allegedly in a 'fail-safe' mode, such that the idiot light comes on even when the pressure is OK. These will also need bleeding after the overhaul.

[Jan Forrest]

Oops! The hydraulic accumulators are on the LEFT side of the engine as viewed from the driver's seat. This is how Rolls Royce define all 'lefts' and 'rights'.
Response Part 2:
I assume that you're measuring the tyre clearances in the morning after the car has been stood overnight so that the hydraulic pressures have been depleted and that the tyres are (in English sizes) 235-70x15"?
If so, then from your description I think all the springs must have been recently replaced as your car is higher than normal all round. Particularly at the rear. This alone would tend to make it wallow on sharp corners. However someone may have just added spring assisters underneath or on top of the existing springs. Either way the car needs to be lowered so that the tyre tops are level with, or a couple of cms below, the wheel arch tops, especially at the rear. It's likely that the new ones are longer but softer than originals. They should settle over time - faster at the rear if you load the trunk for a few weeks or even months.
Soft ride could be down to 'tired' shocks.
Fluid:
RR 363 is only made by Castrol and can be quite expensive. Availability and price seem to better in the US & Australia than anywhere else. For safety's sake it should be totally replaced every 2 years. A viable and cheaper alternative is to throughly mix 500ml of castor oil in 4.5 or 5 litres of DOT 3 or 4 hydraulic fluid. It has much the same characteristics as RR 363 although there have been reports of 'clumping' when used in cars that experience very low temperatures for large parts of the year. If you live in a cold climate then you should use ethoxylated propoxylated castor oil as it is more stable under those conditions. During flushing and replacing you will need <> 10 litres of the stuff.
Have you checked out the Australian RR website yet? The Antipodeans are a friendly bunch and welcome RR enthusiasts from anywhere in the world - even Yanks ;)

[Jan Forrest]

Nearly forgot ... Doh!

You can access, or even download, a full workshop manual for all Silver Shadows and derivatives including the Bentley T Series from here:
http://rrtechnical.info/sy/04_sy
It is in logical chapters and comes in Adobe PDF format. If you don't have Adobe Reader it can be downloaded for free from here:
http://adobe9.0-pdf.com/...

Enjoy :)

[ray]

Jan Forrest wrote:

Nearly forgot ... Doh!
You can access, or even download, a full workshop manual for all Silver Shadows and derivatives including the Bentley T Series from here:
http://rrtechnical.info/sy/04_sy
It is in logical chapters and comes in Adobe PDF format. If you don't have Adobe Reader it can be downloaded for free from here:
http://adobe9.0-pdf.com/...
Enjoy :)

Jan, I wrote a response yesterday but it is not showing up here in the forum so I will try again. Yes The Aussies are friendly, met a bunch of them on a bus tour through Europe where we started out in London. There were some folks from New Zealand there also and the two groups seemed to squabble amongst themselves quite a bit.

The tyres on the Rolls are 225/75/R15 and I noticed the front drivers side is about 1 1/2 inch lower than the other side probably from years of having the typical fat Yank sitting behind the wheel squeezing the life out of the poor spring. When I get the car up on the jack stands, I will see if any modifications were done to the springs. I would also like to replace the shocks. Would you know of a aftermarket shock brand and number to replace these? I am sure the ones supplied from Rolls Royce would be quite expensive. Also the Rover Master Cylinder, would you know a part number for that. I want to replace it whether it needs it or not.

Thanks for the links. I will try to get as much info on the car before I start tearing into it. Have you ever removed the seats in yours? I want to take mine all out, tear out the carpet and replace the floor pans due to the rust in several areas.

I don't know if I will succeed in getting this old girl up to her original glory, but I will try...and one of Americas most famous intellects of this century once said..."Trying is the first step on the road to failure.." Do you know who said that? No, it was not George W. Bush, it was someone considerably wiser...Homer Simpson! "DO'H"

[Jan Forrest]

ray wrote:

<quoted text>
Jan, I wrote a response yesterday but it is not showing up here in the forum so I will try again.

I think the forum doesn't like it if you take too long composing a response and just ignores it.
Anyhoo ...
For sources and other information about aftermarket or substitute parts for Rolls Royces you should look at
http://mutley.hypermart.net/RollsSubstitutePa...
I think it's US based so should be of more use than my UK experiences. Obviously the Land Rover Series 1 master cylinder should be available from any 'old' or 'classic' car parts supplier.
As an aside: Would you believe that it was cheaper for me to buy 3 original oil filter elements off eBay (US) and ship them BACK to Blighty (UK manufactured!) than it was to buy just ONE over here?
While you're accumulating info on the SS please do go out and buy a copy of "The Shadow Owner's Companion" by John J. Waples (I got mine from Amazon) and - if you can find one - "From The Shadow's Corner" by Carl West (if you can find 2 let me know and I'll buy the other one off you plus S&H to the UK as I've already got the others!). With these, a downloaded Workshop Manual and an Owners Handbook, you will be ready to do virtually all basic servicing and repairs and more (if you've got the tools, of course ;)) Anything and everything else is available from the RROCA and they also do a monthly(ish) newsletter that is available to view at
http://rrtechnical.info/TeeOne/teeone.htm
It's absulutely chock full of hints, tips and tales of woe about all Rolls Royce and Bentley models.
Fortunately the floorpan and frame members of my Old Girl are in excellent condition and only needed to be re-undersealed: Which I did last month.

Springs and shocks:
Just to make things 'interesting', the front shocks are easy to change, but the springs are horrendous. At the rear the opposite applies (springs easy, shocks an absolute nightmare)... go figure!
If you do eventually get her roadworthy again the feel of driving a Rolls Royce - even an old one - will more than make up for the sweat, blood, toil, tears and expense! Just try to remember that they are so cheap to buy compared to other cars of the same vintage because about 90-95% of them are still on the road. You won't find any other makes of the 60's and 70's that can boast the same. It's just a testimony to how well they were built in the first place!

*Whispers* Of course 'Dubya' didn't say that: Some of the words have more than one syllable.

[Jan Forrest]

One minor update to a previous response: The 'rat trap' is always under the driver's seat which means that it's under the left side on left hand drive cars; ie. USA models. Also it is accessed from underneath the car rather than through the carpet.

[ray]

Jan Forrest wrote:

One minor update to a previous response: The 'rat trap' is always under the driver's seat which means that it's under the left side on left hand drive cars; ie. USA models. Also it is accessed from underneath the car rather than through the carpet.

OK, thanks again for the advice and links. Looks like I got my work cut out for me for at least a month..But now I am sidetracked in building a chicken house and acquiring about a dozen laying hens. My friends want some Free Range chicken eggs instead of the factory eggs they purchase at the grocery stores and I got the room , so why not become a chicken farmer? When people come down my driveway to purchase my healthy eggs, they will see my Rolls and I will tell them I bought her with the profits from the sales of the eggs. My girlfriend is a book nut constantly going to bookstores and I will put her on the alert for the book you are looking for.

I should start working on the Rolls around the second week of July and will post how my progress or lack thereof is going. Thanks, Ray

[Jan Forrest]

Hens eggs:
I don't eat enough for it to be worthwhile getting a few layers. 10 can last me over a fortnight. However, a friend does and - urban foxes permitting - usually has a few scratching around her property. I wouldn't bother mentioning it, but she's actually allergic to store-bought eggs while being able to eat her own quite happily. As she's also allergic to penicillin it's more than likely that farmed eggs come from chickens that are strongly dosed with penicillin based drugs which then contaminate their eggs.
Thanks for the offer. The 'Shadows Corner' is the only worthwhile Rolls Royce book that I don't currently own. As a Google search doesn't help locating one I can only assume that it is now out of print and that only used versions can be obtained.
Anyway; take your time and don't be tempted to cut corners on the rebuild. Doing it right the first time will work out cheaper in the long run and at least you won't be worried that something will fall off every time you go out for a drive in her.