Toyota has fallen to GM on the MPG front. The Japanese company continues to lose market.
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#10421 Jan 29, 2015
Like the Bolt, the i3 can be purchased as a pure electric. The main difference between them is twofold.
1. Range. The electric i3 has a range of about 80 miles. The Bolt will have a range of 200 plus miles.
2. Price. The all electric i3 costs $41,500 while the Bolt will cost $30,000. Both cars receive the same tax credits.
Another interesting fact is that the range extender version i3 is being compared to the Volt. However, it is vastly different than the Volt.
While both of these cars are series hybrids, the i3 is a basic series hybrid. The gas generator is a 34 hp engine. Also, the gas tank is 1.9 gallons. The purpose of the generator is to create enough electricity to get you to a charging station, whether it be a public station or home base. That is its' only function, but still a better set up than a Leaf.
The main difference between the hybrid i3 and the Volt is that the i3 has no planetary gear set. Planetary gear sets in hybrids are torque split devices. AKA power split devices.
Planetary gear sets in gas car transmissions are to create gear ratios so that the torque from the gasoline engine can be used more efficiently. In hybrids, they are the source of torque / power.
Not all planetary gear sets in hybrids function the same. In the Volt, the power (torque) from all 3 motors, including the gas engine, can be blended together for the sake of efficiency. The final torque (depending on which of the 4 drive modes the car is in), is sent to the single speed gear box and on to the drive wheels.
The series hybrid i3, when in gas mode can not be driven at highway speeds for more than a few miles as demand will outstrip the generators output. The range in this mode is about 75 miles beyond the 72 mile range of the battery. Still, a much better setup than the Leaf.
The series hybrid Volt can be driven at highway speeds for days on end, with a range of 400+ miles at a time.
The price of the range extended i3 is about $45,000. The Volt is at $36,000. Both cars receive the same credits.
Note: the difference in all electric range between the two i3 setups is because of the added weight of the range extender and the gas tank.
#10422 Jan 29, 2015
Visit any GM forum where Volt owners talk about their average range. I average 42 over the year. 38 in winter and 44 in summer.
Newer Volt owners average over 46 miles per charge. That is why Volt owners drive more electric miles per day than Leaf owners do.
#10423 Jan 30, 2015
They are ALL way too expensive. The actual parts to an all-electric car don't equate to the price when you take into account all the parts you Don't need. No exhaust, no pollution system, no fuel system, simple transmissions, etc. These things should be selling for less than a motored vehicle. The Prius is the best $10,000 car I've ever owned for $35,000.
#10424 Jan 30, 2015
In spite of the pompous hype by the GM shill (Volt Lover), GM's Volt experiment has turned out to be an embarrassing and very expensive failure.
Massive Fed subsidies and billions of GM development dollars have literally been shoveled down the drain.
Now, with record breaking recalls and falling market share, GM's future is clouded with doubt,
The big question these days is can GM and their shill the Volt Lover survive?
#10425 Jan 30, 2015
The subsidies for all plug in's produced int he USA (including the Prius) received a one time subsidy. After that, there were no more. Japan subsidized the Prius for almost 20 years.
The original msrp for the Prius in Japan was $17,500. When adjusted for inflation, that comes to $25,800 in today's money. The current Volt is listed at $25,500 after the credits. The credits, once again are paid by the purchaser and no one else. Also, the credits, according to the law passed by G.W. Bush have a cap on them.
Subsidies for all plug in's (including Tesla, Nissan, GM and Toyota) were a one time subsidy in this country. Japan has heavily subsidized Toyota for decades.
However, I do agree with you when it comes to all electrics. Their prices should be lower. Except when it comes to the Tesla S. If you ever rode in one, you wouldn't question the msrp. There isn't a $90,000 in the world that can compare. At least Tesla gives you your money's worth. The Roadster is overpriced.
#10426 Jan 30, 2015
And by the way, this is an old video I made showing one of the many times I surpassed a 50 mile range. Back in those days, I used to drive very conservatively and 50 miles was not that hard to achieve.
I have since learned that driving in L and Sport Mode is much more fun. I dropped about 5 miles on the range end of it, but I don't care now.
In the video, you will notice that I used 5.3 kwh's to drive 27.2 miles.(The numbers shown in the Center Stack Display are all zeroed out when a full charge is achieved. They are zeroed out by the computer. The driver can not reset those values).
Silicon Valley Power Company charges just under 10 cents per kwh. We'll call it 10 cents. So my total charging cost for those miles was $0.53, or just under 1.95 cents per mile. We'll call it 2 cents per mile.
As you can see in this link, the average price for gas in CA is $2.50 a gallon. However, Costco is selling regular at $2.10 per gallon. quite a bargon.
So, if you take the 27.2 miles I drove for 2 cents per mile, and compared that to today's Costco price for gasoline, I would be able to drive 105 miles for the cost of the cheapest gas in California.
But you must remember, gas in CA has averaged over $4 for the past 3 years. So, for 3 years, I was driving over 200 miles for the cost of one gallon of gas. So, yes, 100+ miles for the cost of one gallon of gas does seem terrible to me.
My son pays 4.5 cents per kwh due to the fact that he can take advantage of night time charging rates in his area.(My power company just has a flat rate) So his miles in his Volt per cost of a gallon of gas are twice mine. In other words, he can drive over 200 miles for the cost of a $2.10 gallon of gas.
#10427 Jan 30, 2015
The Prius isn't a plug-in. Only recently have they come out with a plug-in option. and it costs thousands of dollars extra and you must obtain a building permit and have it installed by a licensed electrician. A Nissan Leaf, on the other hand, plugs in with a common extension cord. That's a true plug-in.
#10428 Jan 31, 2015
It never ceases to amaze just how creative Volt Lover gets when he's manipulating truth in order to support his Rhetoric about Volt.
Volt Lover denies the massive subsidies doled out to GM in order to support it's survival.
Volt Lover must receive a healthy stipend from GM for his efforts on their behalf.
No amount of Volt Lover's creativity can disguise the fact that Volt is getting closer to extinction as we speak.
Can GM survive?
#10430 Jan 31, 2015
I saw a VOLT on the road yesterday, a rare sighting. Nice looking car. I think they'll have to cut the price in half to sell them, Toyota is so far out in front of them. I'm still interested in hearing bad comments about the Prius, if anyone has any now. I want a Prius Pick-up truck. I'm in the market now, if anyone at Toyota is listening.
Toyota has a business philosophy of selling you a car, then to your kids and grandchildren. GM's philosophy is we sold you a car, your check cleared, so to Hell with you. Japan's main competition these days is from Hyundai and Kia. The American CEO's of today are simply too greedy to survive in the world market. I hope they see this and change their ways, because They are losing a lot of customers to this shitty attitude. My only Chevy is a 2000 eight-passenger Astro van and I would have replaced it already with a new one, but as they stopped making them, it's the last Chevy I'll be buying.
#10431 Feb 1, 2015
I agree this forum is wrongly titled.
Prius hybrids have already sold millions, and as we speak, they're outselling Volt by a ratio of 20 to 1!
So, is Volt really "leapfrogging" Prius?
Whoever started this forum is misinformed.
(but Volt Lover soldiers on valiantly with his mender dim of half truths and creative hyperbole.
#10432 Feb 1, 2015
I read in an article that in California, one in five cars on the road is a Prius. Hard to believe how well they sold, even in LaLa Land.
#10433 Feb 2, 2015
Well, that is what I meant. All plug in's sold in the USA receive subsidies from the feds, along with the tax credits. They all receive the same subsidies. Including Tesla. G.W. Bush signed in the law.
The tax credits all are dependent on the size of their batteries. The Prius plug in tax credit is one of the lower ones due to the smaller battery.
Here is a list of tax credits that the different plug in's get. There are now 18 plug in's that get credits and subsidies. About half of them are foreign cars.
I also use a wall plug to charge my car. 110 volts.
#10434 Feb 2, 2015
This is a pretty good list of all the countries giving out subsidies for electrics. Quite extensive. The list also includes all the companies and states.
#10436 Feb 2, 2015
Wouldn't help me anyways, but thanks. Hawaii is a corrupt, communist state and we don't actually see the tax incentives anyways. The state either keeps it outright, gives it to the dealer, doles it out to you a little each year in a way that they they never actually send you any of it, or taxes the hell out of you at the end of the year. The federal incentive is again automatically taxed by the state as "additional income."
When I installed my photovoltaic panels for my home a couple of years ago, I was waiting for my incentive check to arrive, but instead received a letter basically saying the state had kept it, but shared some of it with the dealer. I did receive a federal check for twenty grand that year, and quickly bought a new farm tractor before they got ideas. They got me anyways at the end of the year and took about half of it. They did it to me again when I installed solar water. You need a law degree to get anywhere with these crooks.
#10437 Feb 2, 2015
Well, you know, you have the perfect opportunity to use a plug in. Good that you got solar. Hawaii has the highest return rate on solar. Does much better than the S & P 500.
I have a friend in Morgan Hill CA who also got solar. He also got screwed out of the credits. But he is happy anyway because the solar will pay for itself within 7 years. He is giving serious thought to buying a plug in as he meter spins backwards enough that he hates giving free stuff to PG&E. He says he might as well use the electricity. It would all be free fuel miles for him. Now that is a great set up!!!
I don't have any plans for solar as my rates are too low for a quick recoup.
#10438 Feb 2, 2015
I currently use ten panels, but need at least twenty, which would also power the Leaf that I intend on buying. I'm retired, don't need to drive that far, so it would be perfect for me. I can always drive a bigger car or truck when the need arises. LOL, I can imagine the Leaf will be quickly "borrowed" by my grandchildren.
#10439 Feb 2, 2015
I know that people on this forum think I hate the Leaf. I don't. But I would be less than friendly to you if I didn't tell you to check out a few things about the Leaf first.
It is the fastest depreciating car in the world. There are battery problems galore.
Do yourself a favor and check it out first. Download the Leaf manual and read the charging section. There are quite a few warnings in there due to the fact that the Leaf does not have a thermal management system.
For instance, should a Leaf owner decide to leave the country for some time, he / she shouldn't leave the car plugged in for the entire time. On the other hand, you can't leave it unplugged for a long period of time. You can't leave it plugged in for too long because the battery will be overcharged. You can't leave it unplugged because the charge may fall below safe levels.
Plug in's with thermal management systems can be left plugged in for months at a time. The systems control the level of charge. Never more than 80% full charge and never less than 15% on the lower end. But the most important factor concerning thermal management systems is keeping the battery cool while being driven.
Ask yourself if you need that 5th seat. If you don't, you may want to consider the Spark. It has a thermal management system. When compared, side by side in the same test, it had 10% more range than the Leaf.
However, there are other full electrics out there that do have thermal management systems. They are more expensive though. The i3 comes to mind.
The average Leaf owner experiences about 12% range loss over the first 3 years. The manual even explains this.
I have had my car for 3 1/2 years and have yet to experience any range loss. This is all due to the thermal management system.
Just a heads up. Spend some time checking this all out. If you can live with all of its' shortcomings, then the Leaf would be a good choice for you.
#10440 Feb 2, 2015
Forgot to mention. The most problems experienced by Leaf owners are in warmer weather areas. Hawaii probably falls into this category.
Search for any Leaf owner forums in Hawaii and check out their experiences. This could be helpful.
#10441 Feb 2, 2015
Thanks, I'll get educated about it before I shop. I've never heard of the Spark, I'll check that out too. I'm happy with our Prius, I only wish I could have afforded the Station Wagon. My wife bought it right before she retired and we've had nothing but good luck with it, going on two years now.
#10446 Feb 3, 2015
You should also consider that the Leaf sales are based, mainly on what is called a feeding frenzy,(people buying something because everybody else is doing it) and, most importantly, because people want to get in the commuter lanes.
I say most importantly because commuter lanes, especially in CA are a huge draw. For instance, if you take a look at this chart, you will see that the Toyota Prius PHV was selling very well until September, 2014.
The green H.O.V. stickers expired that month. Their sales dropped dramatically after that. California has extended the green sticker program this month on a limited basis, so you should see their sales come back up.
If full electrics lost their stickers, what do you think would happen to Leaf sales? Especially when Tesla and GM are soon to release small 200+ mile range cars at the $30k level. You may want to wait until Nissan makes a commitment to a 200 mile range car. But once again, that thermal management system is so important. Do yourself a favor and download that Leaf manual. It states that Leaf owners should experience a 20% degradation in 5 years. That's the norm.
Check out Leaf owner forums, such as The Wilting Leaf
Also, mynissanleaf.com is a good place to see how owners have had to sue Nissan for battery replacements.
Nissan offers a $100 per month battery replacement warranty. That is on top of their original warranty. Why?
I am, in no way trying to dissuade you from buying a Leaf. If you drive only a few miles and your loss in range won't really affect you, it would do the job very well. The only problem you may have is re-sale. So if you don't intend to keep the car long, that could be a problem.
However, if you intend to keep the car for a long time and the range loss doesn't affect that commute, once again, it would do the job and do it well. Your solar would help you re-coup any loss you may experience when selling the car.
I offer you this info because I attend quite a few plug in meetings around the SF Bay Area. Lots of Volts, Leafs, Sparks, Prius and now, mostly Tesla.
When guest speakers mention Nissan upgrades and warranty offers on their batteries, quite a few Leaf owners are caught off guard. They didn't even know about these problems before they purchased.
Another, very important thing to consider. If you live alone, or you need only one commuter car ... with the Volt, you only need to own one car. Volt owners average 14 miles per day more than Leaf owners. That is not on a commute basis. It is week-end miles (vacations) that are added to the commute. Leaf owners need to take their second car on vacation. Another car payment, insurance, and repairs.
OK ... just keeping it real. Hope your choice makes you happy, regardless. As I stated before, you are in the perfect position to own a full electric, what with your solar. But thinking that all electrics are equal is not the way to enter this field. Good luck.
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