Will the Big Three Automakers Survive?

Will the Big Three Automakers Survive?

There are 130 comments on the www.findingdulcinea.com story from Nov 11, 2008, titled Will the Big Three Automakers Survive?. In it, www.findingdulcinea.com reports that:

Some politicians and economists want to let GM, Ford and Chrysler sink, while others propose offering a chunk of the bank bailout to the ailing U.S. automakers.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at www.findingdulcinea.com.

Unbiased Observer

North Bay, Canada

#41 Nov 12, 2008
Agree.
Unbiased Observer

North Bay, Canada

#42 Nov 12, 2008
General Motors News, November 7, 2008:

General Motors reported a $39 billion third quarter loss yesterday, the largest in the company’s history. The huge loss was the result of GM taking $38.6 billion non-cash charge, indicating a higher risk of a slow turn around that could prevent the automaker from claiming expected future tax credits.
Gas mileage and Quality

Windsor, Canada

#43 Nov 20, 2008
First and for most the Quality built at the any of the big 3 can match any of the Jap Cars.The problem is that We allow these Company's
to flood are market and take nothing in return.How can a Canadian built car compare in price to some of these imports that pay there worker a max of $5.00 bucks an hour.Com e on people dont you realise the total economical affect that if one of the big 3 go belly up let alone all of them.I am a Chrysler employee and have been so for 21 years I earn $33 an hour and earn every damn nickel of that ,I am so sick of you people saying I am the reason the cars are so much money.People don,t realise that only 6% of the total sticker price of vehicle is from wages
stb

Santa Barbara, CA

#44 Nov 20, 2008
They will not survive now they have less than 6 months to live. BK- 11 will just delay the final outcome of BK -7, starting with GM.
Ford may be licking their chops on this one. They downsized enough to maybe survive and sell to their hard core ford lovers
Unbiased Observer

King City, Canada

#45 Nov 20, 2008
For That Guy from Windsor calling himself "Gas Mileage and Quality".....

Hate to tell you but you're stretching the truth just a little bit!(actually a whole lot)

First of all you're a Chrysler employee in Windsor. You make minivans for Chrysler, and most recently, Volkswagen. You used to make the recently discontinued Chrysler crossover too.

Your say your wage is $33 per hour, but then you have to tack on benefits--health care, dental care, hearing, eyeglasses, legal advice, paid holidays, spa days, paid vacation, SUB,COLA, shift premium, classification premium, plus overtime pay, etc.

All tolled, your total hourly pay approaches $70 per hour, and like you, Chrysler employee average take home before taxes is more than $100K per year.

Let's talk about what goes on in that plant (Spent many hours in it doing contract robotic/vision systems work for Chrysler).
How many trades does it take to change a light bulb? At least three!!
How about disconnecting a small hot water circ pump? Usually four guys involved in that!!
Who sweeps the floor when another worker makes a huge mess?(sometimes on purpose!) Sometimes two or more.
What happens when a contractor has to make simple mods to a piece of equipment he supplied? First you gotta have a 2 hour meeting with shop stewards or area reps, then a couple of company tradesmen stand around and watch while the contractor does what those guys know nothing about and couldn't do even if they were asked.
This goes on continually--all day, every day, all over the place!

Next: Employees at the Honda and Toyota plants in Ontarion actually make the same wages as you do---not $5 per hour.

Re quality--Ford is way ahead of Chrysler compared to quality--about on par with Toyota and Honda.
Chrysler has a laong way to go in both Quality and reliability.

Finally: Labor costs are MUCH MORE than the 6% you claim as part of the total cost of an automobile. After all is said and done, the total cost for all payroll charges is closer to 15%!!
Unbiased Observer

Toronto, Canada

#46 Nov 20, 2008
Couple more things.........

On top of the $33 per hour and all those extremely costly benefits('Gas mileage and Quality' must think they come from heaven!), it's also necessary to factor in the lucrative pension+benefits he receives on retirement.(employer paid BTW)

Oh yeah, did he also overlook the "30 and out" retirement clause too? Where employees can retire as early as age 48, then collect pension and benefits for another 30-40-50 years?

Who does he think pays these costs---or do they just happen?

When considering wages and additional costs for the Detroit Three hourly employees, make no mistake---they are the single most expensive employee group on the planet!
The Big Three

Salt Lake City, UT

#47 Nov 26, 2008
Nobody seems to understand here, the big three do build fuel efficient cars, I have studied GM's line of cars, and they have at least seven cars that get 30 or more miles per gallon, and another four that get 24 miles per gallon or more.
This is not the problem here, although every guru, government official, and American person seems to think that it is, and to the building cars that nobody wants.
I want them, and I seen a pole taken by a national polling company, that clearly said more people that they had polled would rather buy an American car, I get so sick of hearing that sort of nonsense.
There will always be a need for trucks that can pull, tow, and haul a lot of weight, and do you think the importers can really do it, I don't, Toyota has tried, and failed miserably.
And the fact that they even tried to build a more American truck has got to tell these people who say that American can't do it something, the Toyota Tundra has a V8 in it, what could possibly be more American then that.
I blame this on the Unions, and the American people with their imports are better agenda, I worked in auto shops for years, and I'll tell you without a doubt, I seen as many imports in those shops as American cars, so where is this huge quality difference that I always hera about.
The Big Three

Salt Lake City, UT

#48 Nov 26, 2008
Unbiased Observer wrote:
General Motors News, November 7, 2008:
General Motors reported a $39 billion third quarter loss yesterday, the largest in the company’s history. The huge loss was the result of GM taking $38.6 billion non-cash charge, indicating a higher risk of a slow turn around that could prevent the automaker from claiming expected future tax credits.
But yet still sold more then Toyota for the last two months, but nobody wants to buy American huh, the imports are much better.
stb

Santa Barbara, CA

#49 Nov 26, 2008
The Big Three wrote:
Nobody seems to understand here, the big three do build fuel efficient cars, I have studied GM's line of cars, and they have at least seven cars that get 30 or more miles per gallon, and another four that get 24 miles per gallon or more.
This is not the problem here, although every guru, government official, and American person seems to think that it is, and to the building cars that nobody wants.
I want them, and I seen a pole taken by a national polling company, that clearly said more people that they had polled would rather buy an American car, I get so sick of hearing that sort of nonsense.
There will always be a need for trucks that can pull, tow, and haul a lot of weight, and do you think the importers can really do it, I don't, Toyota has tried, and failed miserably.
And the fact that they even tried to build a more American truck has got to tell these people who say that American can't do it something, the Toyota Tundra has a V8 in it, what could possibly be more American then that.
I blame this on the Unions, and the American people with their imports are better agenda, I worked in auto shops for years, and I'll tell you without a doubt, I seen as many imports in those shops as American cars, so where is this huge quality difference that I always hera about.
They may produce fuel efficient cars, but its obvious not many people want them.

It's no secret that imports have a history of long term reliability and resale value. Domestics are junk and have always been in the rearview mirror of the jap auto makers.

Don't think too hard about this one, it's rather simple- just suck it up and quit being in denial.

Say it with me- GM, Ford and the other one are junk. Now, don't you feel better? I's going to be a good day for you my friend. No need to thank Sammy. You're welcome.

“Who Is John Galt?”

Since: Dec 07

Pahrump, NV

#50 Nov 26, 2008
HELLO....Can you say "We Have No More Money = Not Enough Customers"? Americans are IN HOCK up to their eyeballs. The typical customer no longer exists. The economy for the next 3+ years will not support 3-auto manufacturers. If our federal government bails them out as they have every other company that has asked for $$$, it will be an entire waste. Let them go bankrupt - have the courts settle it. I didn't like the "fat-headed I'm better then thou" attitude they displayed at the Hearings anyway. If the Toyota CEO can "get by" with $1-million a year salary then sure as He** Wagoner (the GM CEO) damn well can too! Otherwise he wouldn't get MY vote. I don't notice Toyota or Honda begging for cash....
Arkansas

Plymouth, MI

#51 Nov 26, 2008
Jesus Chrysler wrote:
If the government bails out Detroit for refusing to make cars that people want, what will be the incentive to start doing so? The Big Three have spent the past few years focused on design improvements when their cars all get terrible gas mileage and have atrocious reliability compared to foreign cars. Maybe instead of asking us for a handout they should try being good at their jobs.
Since I have noticed that, for the last several days, there have been
quite a lot of very hostile, very smarmy globalist Asian auto
manufacturer fanboys in this forum (which is peculiar since this is a
GM forum, and I wouldn't think that you'd have any reason to come here
just to flame GM unless you're obviously trolling), I thought I'd post
these links. They're from Automobile Magazine's website. They list all
the recalls of the Toyota Prius starting with the 2001 model, and
Toyota Camry since the 2000 model.
The Toyota Prius has ben recalled 10 TIMES since 2001. I don't care if
the recalls covered minor or major flaws, however, some of the recalls
are for major things. The important thing is that the precious, cute,
fuzzy, cuddly, and warm Japanese automakers are not ominpotent, nor
are they infallible or smarter than American automakers. So, please,
if you wish to comment on on how "crappy" American cars are as opposed
to the Asian cars, save it. It's all bullshit propaganda, Fox News
spin, and globalist lies. The real issue behind the hostility directed
at American automakers is, in my opinion, right-wing anti-labor and
anti-union ideology, and an overall lack of concern for the standard
of living of the American worker.
Prius:
http://www.automobilemag.com/auto_recalls/11/...
For good measure, here is the Toyota Camry's recall history. The Camry
has been recalled 16 TIMES since the 2000 model year.
http://www.automobilemag.com/auto_recalls/11/...

Since: Aug 07

Trumbull CT

#52 Nov 26, 2008
BlackStarRanch wrote:
If our federagovernment bails them out as they have every other company that has asked for $$$, it will be an entire waste.
?

You state “government bails them out as they have every other company that has asked for $$$, it will be an entire waste.”

Ummm, might you tell me what other “company” we have bailed out? Might you be confusing a “company” with Fanny and Freddie, or maybe…banks…by some chance?

Really though, it frightens me that some people actually have the right to vote. Again, ignorance is our most expensive commodity.

Since: Aug 07

Trumbull CT

#53 Nov 26, 2008
Arkansas wrote:
<quoted text>Since I have noticed that, for the last several days, there have been
quite a lot of very hostile, very smarmy globalist Asian auto
manufacturer fanboys in this forum (which is peculiar since this is a
GM forum, and I wouldn't think that you'd have any reason to come here
just to flame GM unless you're obviously trolling), I thought I'd post
these links. They're from Automobile Magazine's website. They list all
the recalls of the Toyota Prius starting with the 2001 model, and
Toyota Camry since the 2000 model.
The Toyota Prius has ben recalled 10 TIMES since 2001. I don't care if
the recalls covered minor or major flaws, however, some of the recalls
are for major things. The important thing is that the precious, cute,
fuzzy, cuddly, and warm Japanese automakers are not ominpotent, nor
are they infallible or smarter than American automakers. So, please,
if you wish to comment on on how "crappy" American cars are as opposed
to the Asian cars, save it. It's all bullshit propaganda, Fox News
spin, and globalist lies. The real issue behind the hostility directed
at American automakers is, in my opinion, right-wing anti-labor and
anti-union ideology, and an overall lack of concern for the standard
of living of the American worker.
Prius:
http://www.automobilemag.com/auto_recalls/11/...
For good measure, here is the Toyota Camry's recall history. The Camry
has been recalled 16 TIMES since the 2000 model year.
http://www.automobilemag.com/auto_recalls/11/...
http://www.topix.net/forum/aut os

Since: Aug 07

Trumbull CT

#54 Nov 26, 2008

“Who Is John Galt?”

Since: Dec 07

Pahrump, NV

#55 Nov 26, 2008
....I'm sure you are aware "banks" are private businesses as well. As are insurance companies (AIG). Lets NOT mention the BILLIONS the FedGov has wrapped up in PRIVATE COMPANY paper (bills they have paid for small businesses)for short-term debt. ALL of that is guaranteed by the Federal Government. I'm sure you ARE ALSO aware "The Fed Gov" really means US - US TAXPAYERS. There is no magic money spreading government fairy, excluding of course Bush, Bernanke, & Paulson.
The Big Three

Salt Lake City, UT

#56 Nov 26, 2008
<blockquote>Say it with me- GM, Ford and the other one are junk. Now, don't you feel better? I's going to be a good day for you my friend. No need to thank Sammy. You're welcome.</blocquote>

As to idiot statement, like so many of you anti-American import lovers, it's possible that you should just go back where you came form.

Your statement is ridiculous, and it you could not possibly sound dumber making a statement like that, I have owned Japanese, and German cars also, and find them to be inferior products.

I grew up on American cars and trucks, until my dad bought his first Toyota truck in 1985, and it was a good truck, I bought it from him when he bought his new Ford.

I will however say this, you go right ahead and try to make a Toyota do the same work that American trucks do every day, and see it you don't break it down, I did.

It's time to jump off of your import soapbox and become an American again, that is if you ever ere in the first place, this is where the entire problem stems form in our country, is idiots like you.

David C. Atkin
The Big Three

Salt Lake City, UT

#57 Nov 26, 2008
Unbiased Observer wrote:
Couple more things.........
On top of the $33 per hour and all those extremely costly benefits('Gas mileage and Quality' must think they come from heaven!), it's also necessary to factor in the lucrative pension+benefits he receives on retirement.(employer paid BTW)
Oh yeah, did he also overlook the "30 and out" retirement clause too? Where employees can retire as early as age 48, then collect pension and benefits for another 30-40-50 years?
Who does he think pays these costs---or do they just happen?
When considering wages and additional costs for the Detroit Three hourly employees, make no mistake---they are the single most expensive employee group on the planet!
It's obvious that the union is killing what's left of the big three, and should be stopped at all costs, but your friends in high places, the democrats seem to love the extortion that the UAW does everyday.

I believe in the American auto industry, and it's long survival, and I believe in America, and not in selling our motor companies to any other country.

It just seem ridiculous to me that people harp on the imports being gods gift to humanity, and it's long steadfast survival.

I have worked in the auto industry for years, and I might add for independent auto repair shops, not the big three, but the honest truth is while all you people complain constantly about the quality, and engineering of American cars, you don't really study, or you see only the facts that you want to see.

I repaired just as many Toyota's during my time in the industry, as Honda's, and Fords, Chryslers, and GM's, now prove me wrong, this would indicate that the quality is about on par, and to the last ability issue, if you maintain an American car it will last every bit as long, I had a GMC truck that I put 390,000 miles on before I sold it, and without a new engine put in it, I dove it on the factory engine for all those miles.
STB

Santa Barbara, CA

#58 Nov 26, 2008
The Big Three wrote:
<blockquote>Say it with me- GM, Ford and the other one are junk. Now, don't you feel better? I's going to be a good day for you my friend. No need to thank Sammy. You're welcome.</blocquote>
As to idiot statement, like so many of you anti-American import lovers, it's possible that you should just go back where you came form.
Your statement is ridiculous, and it you could not possibly sound dumber making a statement like that, I have owned Japanese, and German cars also, and find them to be inferior products.
I grew up on American cars and trucks, until my dad bought his first Toyota truck in 1985, and it was a good truck, I bought it from him when he bought his new Ford.
I will however say this, you go right ahead and try to make a Toyota do the same work that American trucks do every day, and see it you don't break it down, I did.
It's time to jump off of your import soapbox and become an American again, that is if you ever ere in the first place, this is where the entire problem stems form in our country, is idiots like you.
David C. Atkin
This has to do with cars not being patriotic. I don't care who makes the car, I just care about quality. You call me an idiot. You're the one eating up that "domestics are great" propaganda crap with a spoon. Anyone with half a brain knows domestics are inferior- so my assumtion is that you don't possess half a brain.

Look at the facts- your prized domestics failed (all 3). They are asking for welfare money now or else they will go belly up. If their products are so great why don't red blooded americans want them?

GM went from 50% market share to 16% in just a few years.

Like them facts? whose the idiot now?

_ Go buy an import like everyone else and sht the f up.
Oh, and I will go back to where I came from
Sanata Barbara- Why don't you do the same?
Let me guess, you'll end up back in Canada?
The Big Three

Salt Lake City, UT

#59 Nov 26, 2008
stb wrote:
<quoted text>
They may produce fuel efficient cars, but its obvious not many people want them.
It's no secret that imports have a history of long term reliability and resale value. Domestics are junk and have always been in the rearview mirror of the jap auto makers.
Don't think too hard about this one, it's rather simple- just suck it up and quit being in denial.
Say it with me- GM, Ford and the other one are junk. Now, don't you feel better? I's going to be a good day for you my friend. No need to thank Sammy. You're welcome.
You are such a ridiculous import idiot, I don't even have words to convey my disgust with your outright anti-American crap, what I do have words for is the big three.

I love them, I always will love them, and nothing you can do or say could ever possibly change that, now if you want me a happy day, then pack your bags and leave our country, and I will celebrate for at leas one year solid every day.

Since: Aug 07

Trumbull CT

#60 Nov 26, 2008
BlackStarRanch wrote:
....I'm sure you are aware "banks" are private businesses as well. As are insurance companies (AIG). Lets NOT mention the BILLIONS the FedGov has wrapped up in PRIVATE COMPANY paper (bills they have paid for small businesses)for short-term debt. ALL of that is guaranteed by the Federal Government. I'm sure you ARE ALSO aware "The Fed Gov" really means US - US TAXPAYERS. There is no magic money spreading government fairy, excluding of course Bush, Bernanke, & Paulson.
Again, ignorance is our most expensive commodity.

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