Nhtsa Findings Continue To Point To Driver Error, Again. Is Toyota Nearly In The Clear?

Aug 11, 2010 Full story: AutoSpies 32

This is starting to get old, huh? Looks like those "electrical gremlins" that everyone was hootin' and hollerin' about don't exactly exist.

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Since: Apr 07

ridgefarm Il

#1 Aug 11, 2010
I just find it hard to believe any driver would hit the accelerator over the brake.
whatever

Lincolnshire, IL

#2 Aug 11, 2010
Tom Loy wrote:
I just find it hard to believe any driver would hit the accelerator over the brake.
You mean like when an old person is backing up and instead of hitting the brake to stop they hit the gas pedal, plowing through a building or a crowd of people? Is that unbelievable also? Not trying to cause an argument. I'm just asking.

Since: Apr 07

ridgefarm Il

#3 Aug 11, 2010
whatever wrote:
<quoted text>
You mean like when an old person is backing up and instead of hitting the brake to stop they hit the gas pedal, plowing through a building or a crowd of people? Is that unbelievable also? Not trying to cause an argument. I'm just asking.
Yes. Its not believeable. I find it hard to believe someone with 50 years of driving experience is just going to accidentally hit the gas pedal as many times as is the case in these toyota incidents.
Stop It

Belle River, Canada

#4 Aug 11, 2010
Tom Loy wrote:
I just find it hard to believe any driver would hit the accelerator over the brake.
I've witnessed this happen on at least three occasions--the latest being two weeks ago in a parking lot.
In this latest incident, a newly minted young driver with his father's brand new Chevy SUV, pressed the accellerator instead of the brake, went off the road, jumped a curb, took out a tree, and generally ruined the front end of the vehicle, triggered air bags, etc.
Driver first claimed the vehicle took off on its own, but later admitted his mistake--because his father was in the vehicle with him and saw the whole deal unfold.
The other two instances were much older drivers (over 80 years of age) who, in my opinion shouldn't have been allowed to drive at all. They simply got confused and pressed the wrong pedal.
Stop It

Belle River, Canada

#5 Aug 11, 2010
Tom Loy wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes. Its not believeable. I find it hard to believe someone with 50 years of driving experience is just going to accidentally hit the gas pedal as many times as is the case in these toyota incidents.
Sorry o disagree Tom--it's been happening since cars were invented.
The Audi fiasco a few years ago is just one of many examples.
Audi was wrongly trashed (like Toyota) for being at fault, and sales went in the tank for years afterward as a result.
After extensive investigation by NHTSA and others, it was clearly shown to be driver error--people pressed the wrong pedal.

Since: Apr 07

ridgefarm Il

#6 Aug 11, 2010
Stop It wrote:
<quoted text>
I've witnessed this happen on at least three occasions--the latest being two weeks ago in a parking lot.
In this latest incident, a newly minted young driver with his father's brand new Chevy SUV, pressed the accellerator instead of the brake, went off the road, jumped a curb, took out a tree, and generally ruined the front end of the vehicle, triggered air bags, etc.
Driver first claimed the vehicle took off on its own, but later admitted his mistake--because his father was in the vehicle with him and saw the whole deal unfold.
The other two instances were much older drivers (over 80 years of age) who, in my opinion shouldn't have been allowed to drive at all. They simply got confused and pressed the wrong pedal.
New drivers I can understand. I have done that myself many years ago.

Since: Apr 07

ridgefarm Il

#7 Aug 11, 2010
Stop It wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry o disagree Tom--it's been happening since cars were invented.
The Audi fiasco a few years ago is just one of many examples.
Audi was wrongly trashed (like Toyota) for being at fault, and sales went in the tank for years afterward as a result.
After extensive investigation by NHTSA and others, it was clearly shown to be driver error--people pressed the wrong pedal.
You've no reason to be sorry. None of us can expect to be right all the time.
downunder

Mitcham, Australia

#8 Aug 11, 2010
Tom Loy wrote:
<quoted text>
You've no reason to be sorry. None of us can expect to be right all the time.
Except you are JJfads,

“Most Honored Senior Member ”

Since: Jun 09

Dallas, TX.

#9 Aug 11, 2010
Toyota itself has said the black box data cannot be trusted. They are still liable for many of the SUA crashes and will be brought to justice. Watch it happen.
Stop It

Belle River, Canada

#10 Aug 11, 2010
JJFADS wrote:
Toyota itself has said the black box data cannot be trusted. They are still liable for many of the SUA crashes and will be brought to justice. Watch it happen.
Any excuse to villify your favoutite target JJFADS?

Just when I thought you had turned over a new and improved presence herein.

Your opportunistic (and predatory) remarks aside, wouldn't it be a wise thing to wait until history shows us the right answer, before convicting?

Better still, give it a break---you'll survive the abstention, and besides---it builds character.

“Most Honored Senior Member ”

Since: Jun 09

Dallas, TX.

#11 Aug 11, 2010
No, I am simply stating fact. Toyota itself said they cannot rely on the black box information, and Toyota admitted to the SUA flaws. Whatís at question is the electronics of which I left at question as a good hearted attempt to stay equal.

Disclaimer-
It will be clearly known that I still believe there is an electronics issue.
Stop It

Belle River, Canada

#12 Aug 11, 2010
May it be clearly known that those who claim to predict the future should be wise, rich, and famous, anong other things.

Why is it most, if not all of them (especially you JJ)---aren't?

“Most Honored Senior Member ”

Since: Jun 09

Dallas, TX.

#13 Aug 11, 2010
Iím not getting into semantics.

“Irrefutable Harm”

Since: Mar 09

Miami Beach Fl.

#14 Aug 11, 2010
This is a non news story. Toyota is still responsible for its sticky pedals and floor mat defects. The data shown by NHTSA does not in any way exclude the possibility of electronics-induced sudden acceleration. In at least 5 of the (only) 58 cases examined, the electronic data recorder did not work properly. It is possible it did not work properly in some or all other cases as well. Since the EDR is relying on exactly the same (possibly faulty) data that the electronic system uses, no conclusions can be made. Furthermore, a number of cases showed that the brake was applied at least partially. What we don't know is whether the driver was in fact "physically" also stepping on the gas. All we know is that the sensors record the application of both the brakes and accelerator pedal. It is possible one of those was due to an electronic "ghost." The existence of this "ghost" has been demonstrated by at least two professors who showed that the electronics/sensors can be fooled. So, in spite of the headlines, no rational conclusion can be made from the NHTSA data regarding the existence or absence of an electronic/software problem in Toyotas. I thought you guys were better than this!

Obviously some or even a majority of unintended acceleration is due to driver error. That fact has been well known since the invention of the automobile. So, it should not come as a surprise that 35 of the 58 cases seem to indicate driver error (assuming you can trust the sensors). That still leaves almost 40% of the remaining cases unexplained. Although I believe one of those cases was determined to be due to entrapment. That still leaves about 22 out of 58 cases with a unsatisfactory explanation.
Stop It

Belle River, Canada

#15 Aug 12, 2010
JJFADS wrote:
Iím not getting into semantics.
Yikes, sheesh, and behold---what a load of crap!!!!!

Here's the one person who indulges in semantics more than anyone else in this forum claiming "He's not getting into semantics!!"

My apologies for the digression from topic, but JJ's "disclaimer" was just too hypocritical to ignore!!
Stop It

Belle River, Canada

#16 Aug 12, 2010
Phantompay wrote:
This is a non news story. Toyota is still responsible for its sticky pedals and floor mat defects. The data shown by NHTSA does not in any way exclude the possibility of electronics-induced sudden acceleration. In at least 5 of the (only) 58 cases examined, the electronic data recorder did not work properly. It is possible it did not work properly in some or all other cases as well. Since the EDR is relying on exactly the same (possibly faulty) data that the electronic system uses, no conclusions can be made. Furthermore, a number of cases showed that the brake was applied at least partially. What we don't know is whether the driver was in fact "physically" also stepping on the gas. All we know is that the sensors record the application of both the brakes and accelerator pedal. It is possible one of those was due to an electronic "ghost." The existence of this "ghost" has been demonstrated by at least two professors who showed that the electronics/sensors can be fooled. So, in spite of the headlines, no rational conclusion can be made from the NHTSA data regarding the existence or absence of an electronic/software problem in Toyotas. I thought you guys were better than this!
Obviously some or even a majority of unintended acceleration is due to driver error. That fact has been well known since the invention of the automobile. So, it should not come as a surprise that 35 of the 58 cases seem to indicate driver error (assuming you can trust the sensors). That still leaves almost 40% of the remaining cases unexplained. Although I believe one of those cases was determined to be due to entrapment. That still leaves about 22 out of 58 cases with a unsatisfactory explanation.
Altho' I find some small merit in your post---the bottom line is:...

(a) there's a hint of good news in the story (why not allow that instead of desperately trolling for ways to discredit it?);

(b) It certainly sheds doubt on the previously overwhelming amount of condemning hype aimed at Toyota in this forum (among other sources including other automakers, media, government, etc);

(c) You said it in your post---"What we don't know.....".
Far too often these half assed condemnations of Toyota have been driven far more by "what we don't know" than otherwise.

Whatever---the jury is still out, and all the conjecture in this world has failed to convince me that there's a strong case against Toyota.
Surrounding all of the hoopla I see an underlying element of fear driven paranoia by the anti Toyota fsction because of the successes of an offshore competitor.
IMO,(and it's just an opinion) history will show that to be true, but I seriously doubt any of the naysayers will admit it even if it does happen.
Truckin

Greensboro, NC

#17 Aug 12, 2010
Toyota has been cleared, there is no evidence to convict beyond a reasonable doubt.

“Most Honored Senior Member ”

Since: Jun 09

Dallas, TX.

#18 Aug 12, 2010
You need to be worried about a preponderance of the evidence, thatís where your money will go.

“Most Honored Senior Member ”

Since: Jun 09

Dallas, TX.

#19 Aug 12, 2010
Most of you are forgetting something. Toyotaís woes over the defects are not in question; we all know they are responsible.

This article deals with the good hearted studies to see if there are >additional defects< on top of what the auto manufacturer has already disclosed.
Stop It

Belle River, Canada

#20 Aug 12, 2010
JJFADS wrote:
You need to be worried about a preponderance of the evidence, thatís where your money will go.
Preponderence of evidence indeed?

This thread speaks to an issue which has been widely touted by all and sundry to relentlessly and viciously villify an automaker.

It speaks to allegations heretofor levied against Toyota concerning a mysterious electronic "ghost" which is claimed to be causing UA in Toyota vehicles.

So far, there appears to be no "preponderence of evidence" regarding this mysterious "ghost"---in fact the only realistic evidence concerning these allegations so far points to something else---possibly even driver error.

That's what the article speaks to, and quotes the investigating authority (NHTSA) accordingly.

Where's your so called "preponderence of evidence" JJFADS.

There isn't any. Not yet, in any event.

Explain that if you can JJFADS.(without the usual semantics, if you please)

BTW JJ, if you've any access to CBC National News, you would have seen a report yesterday about a driver in Toronto who swore up and down his Lexus did a UA--twice--it was so forceful that he had to "stand on the brakes with both feet so that his butt lifted off the seat".
Later it turned out he was found to be racing another vehicle from stop lights, got caught doing it by the cops, and used UA as an excuse.
Is that part of your preponderence of evidence?
Or the fact that every Tort Litigator on the continent has seen this UA issue as a growth industry?

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