Melbourne sheik backs calls to legalise polygamy

[Rex]

*- should be "their views"

[M4Pathfinder]

Wow, way too many humungous paragraphs to 'attempt' to read on the page before this.
Just hurts my eyes.

Hmm, now Hugh Jackman will know he has options & can have another wifey. Yummy.

[Richie]

Its sounds like your more interested in blindly upholding the law, rather then questioning its relevence to current social trends. Look at why the recommendation for this change to the law is being made, and what are the impacts of not changing it vs changing it. Use drug laws as an example, and look at the countries that have a working legal system to tackle this issue. Its not the law that solves the problem, but social awareness to the impact, and how serious society is set on minimising the problems.

as for having more freedom now than ever before, maybe you should look at the inuits, or even the 80's and try to show how we have obtained more freedom, maybe its more free for you to impose your own beliefs being current main majority.

And your last comment, we can and will stop it, well looks like your mind is madeup and nothing no one can do will change that. Fair enough, but don't expect society as a whole to go the same route.

Don't be all for peace but willing to kill anyone who isn't

dee wrote:

<quoted text>
"Who are we to dictate what a man or woman can or can't do"
"We" in this case, is Australian law. Having more than one wife is illegal in Australia, as it is in all Western countries. I'm sure Muslims are aware of this before they come here.
"so called "freedom" that the west attempts to provide"
More than merely 'attempting to provide', the West DOES provide more individual freedom than any other culture in history. "Freedom" includes the right to decide if a custom is detrimental to society as a whole. A culture in which monogamy is the historical norm (even if we don't always live up to it) would be crazy to allow polygamy, a primitive form of marriage that results in all kinds of social problems.
"Just becuase you may not like it, does not mean you can stop it."
We can - and will - stop it.

[Richie]

responding to the worl mate, responding to the world

wallabyedward wrote:

<quoted text>
I'm not sure what you mean by that.
I've commented on extremists, not the normal everyday people of this planet.
Who were you responding to?

[Richie]

I think your better seeing yourself as the one who is currently contributing to the society rather then regurtitate history. Every nation has achieve outstanding acomplishments but has also committed atrocities (Australia included).
My reference was to physical freedom, mental freedom is your own battle with yourself, so please do not use television radio, or worse yet hiding behind the well being of your children as a means to justify your ends, if you dont like it switch it off and go play in the park.
And no you can't stop it, you can just send it underground, alienating and postponing yet another challenge for our society.
Oh and I'm not dutch but australian, always be careful of the assumptions you make, assumptions lead to incorrect preceptions.

Taser wrote:

<quoted text>
Who are we? We are the ones whose ancestors built up this country through blood, sweat and tears, that's who. Remember us from New Holland, Dutchie?
We are the people who in mere two hundred years went from prison to first world nation. We are the people who naively offered assistance and asylum to people who said they were desperate to leave lands of horror, violence and corruption.
They said wanted to contribute to this country - not re-created their homelands here.
The government said multiculturalism would never lead to watering down of our values and cultures. But someone lied.
Oh and polygamy it does infringe on MY freedom. Why do our children have to witness this base behaviour in the name of multiculturalism?
How do we have to explain these disgusting and immoral values to children that we totally and utter oppose? why should we have to?
You see it doesnt just stop in the bedroom, its on television, newspapers, schools and books. These all have to be revised and rewritten to accomodate.
And we are not told by our rulers to tolerate but ACCEPT and not make any act of opposition to our rights being damaged and massaged to incorporate these practices.
Even in your final point you are wrong. We can stop it but we have to be clear headed and stop the pretense, that this is normal, acceptable or desired.

[Richie]

And what if were athiest? I dont need religous morals placed on me thanks

dee wrote:

Right answer:
"finding such high-moral Christian women who are also willing to be polygamous can be quite a challenge for Christian polygamists"
Finding some woman weak-minded and lacking in pride and self esteem, you mean. As for 'high-morals'- ever heard of the commandment:
"Thou shalt not commit adultery"?
Since monogamy is the legal, religious and moral norm of the Western world, marrying into a polygamous situation is committing adultery.

[Richie]

yes, just like drugs, prostitution, guns, illegal gambling ect.... Ineffective law just makes certain activities more profitable for the wrong people.

ngali wrote:

<quoted text>
Your given rightscare those provided by Australian laws. The law doesn't like it - and you'd better believe it can stop it.

[Dee]

Richie wrote:

And what if were athiest? I dont need religous morals placed on me thanks
<quoted text>

Then forget about religion or morals and simply accept the reality of the situation - polygamy is a primitive form of marriage which is illegal in Western countries.

More reality - polygamy is demeaning to women, at least half of voters are female, and there is no way they would ever accept it.

[Dee]

Richie wrote:

Its sounds like your more interested in blindly upholding the law, rather then questioning its relevence to current social trends. Look at why the recommendation for this change to the law is being made, and what are the impacts of not changing it vs changing it. Use drug laws as an example, and look at the countries that have a working legal system to tackle this issue. Its not the law that solves the problem, but social awareness to the impact, and how serious society is set on minimising the problems.
as for having more freedom now than ever before, maybe you should look at the inuits, or even the 80's and try to show how we have obtained more freedom, maybe its more free for you to impose your own beliefs being current main majority.
And your last comment, we can and will stop it, well looks like your mind is madeup and nothing no one can do will change that. Fair enough, but don't expect society as a whole to go the same route.
Don't be all for peace but willing to kill anyone who isn't
<quoted text>

"Its sounds like your more interested in blindly upholding the law,"

I don't blindly uphold anything. If I uphold something, it's because I have thought about it and agree with it.

"rather then questioning its relevence to current social trends."

Polygamy is not relevent to current trends - the subject was only mentioned at all because yet another Muslim immigrant is making an attempt to change our society to suit Muslims.

"Look at why the recommendation for this change to the law is being made"

Please! It is 'recommended' by a Muslim cleric to suit his fellow Muslims who want more than one wife. Muslims know the law before they come to Australia - if they want multiple wives, stay home - don't come to a country where polygamy is against the law and then try to change it. Simple.

"to impose your own beliefs being current main majority:"

Let me assure you that the majority of Australians share my views.

"you should look at the inuits"

Why? The Inuits consisted of small bands of related families living a hunter-gatherer existence. How are they relevent to modern Western society?

"or even the 80's"

We have had freedoms taken away, I agree. But we still have more individual rights and freedom than any other culture in history.

"but don't expect society as a whole to go the same route."

I know that Australians will reject any calls for polygamy (or any other detrimental alien custom) to be legalised in this country.

[Taser]

Richie wrote:

I think your better seeing yourself as the one who is currently contributing to the society rather then regurtitate history. Every nation has achieve outstanding acomplishments but has also committed atrocities (Australia included).
My reference was to physical freedom, mental freedom is your own battle with yourself, so please do not use television radio, or worse yet hiding behind the well being of your children as a means to justify your ends, if you dont like it switch it off and go play in the park.
And no you can't stop it, you can just send it underground, alienating and postponing yet another challenge for our society.
Oh and I'm not dutch but australian, always be careful of the assumptions you make, assumptions lead to incorrect preceptions.
<quoted text>

Gotcha. I'm glad you admited you are Australian. I wanted to draw you out. Now I have something to say to you, liberal.

I see straight through you. It is the likes of you who are the threat to the freedom and values of our people, culture and society.

You are the weak who use multiculturalism to defend practices no matter how repugnant, how vile, how damaging so you can pretend you are morally enlightened.

It is you who betray your fellow Australian's so that you can rub up your own ego by pretending to give a damn about freedom.

Take a look at Holland. What a sh*thole, best you stay where you are.

[Dee]

I sympathise with Muslim women caught up in this situation, but polygamy should not be recognised or accepted for any reason. Anyone reading this story can see how detrimental polygamy would be to our society. Any of you ladies here like to come home and find another 'wife' in your house?

"Italy grapples with polygamy
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world...

ROME -- A few miles from the Vatican, Najat Hadi kept house with her husband, his other wife and their assorted children, an unhappy home with a hateful woman 10 years her junior and a cruel spouse who left her with a jagged scar peeking from her collar.

Finally, she says, her Egyptian-born husband, who worked in Rome making pizzas, beat her so badly that she left him. But he kept her children...

Italy is one of several European nations faced with the issue of polygamy. In Britain and Spain, where large Muslim communities have also settled, some officials favor recognizing polygamous marriage as a way to ensure the wives' access to pensions, medical care and other state benefits....

Hadi, a Moroccan, had endured beatings and humiliation because she felt she had nowhere to turn. She said she met and married her husband in 1987 in Italy, where she was visiting on holiday. They had a religious ceremony at a local mosque and a legal wedding at the Egyptian Embassy in Rome. Over the next decade, she gave birth to four children.

Then, one day in 2000, Hadi returned from a vacation in Egypt, where she had taken the children to spend time with her husband's family. In her Rome apartment was a new woman. Her husband had married again while she was gone.

"I returned and found her in my house," Hadi, 46, said. Hadi said she at first challenged her husband but then decided there was little she could do.

"He said,'I've married this woman.' I wanted to know why. I told him to send her away. He refused. But where could I go with four children?" She tried to accommodate the other woman, an Egyptian whom Hadi describes as full of hatred.

"I tried to accept her, for the children," Hadi said. "But she wasn't a woman with a brain."

Her husband's beatings got worse, landing Hadi repeatedly in the hospital. The pale scar on her chest is a remnant of the time she says he took after her with a knife."

[Joe]

Some people say Heath Ledger's Joker in the Dark Knight is an allegory for radical terrorist Islam, it seems to have some parallels as the Joker makes no sense, Islamists generally make no sense either.

[Ania]

Dee wrote:

I sympathise with Muslim women caught up in this situation, but polygamy should not be recognised or accepted for any reason. Anyone reading this story can see how detrimental polygamy would be to our society. Any of you ladies here like to come home and find another 'wife' in your house?
"Italy grapples with polygamy
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world...
ROME -- A few miles from the Vatican, Najat Hadi kept house with her husband, his other wife and their assorted children, an unhappy home with a hateful woman 10 years her junior and a cruel spouse who left her with a jagged scar peeking from her collar.
Finally, she says, her Egyptian-born husband, who worked in Rome making pizzas, beat her so badly that she left him. But he kept her children...
Italy is one of several European nations faced with the issue of polygamy. In Britain and Spain, where large Muslim communities have also settled, some officials favor recognizing polygamous marriage as a way to ensure the wives' access to pensions, medical care and other state benefits....
Hadi, a Moroccan, had endured beatings and humiliation because she felt she had nowhere to turn. She said she met and married her husband in 1987 in Italy, where she was visiting on holiday. They had a religious ceremony at a local mosque and a legal wedding at the Egyptian Embassy in Rome. Over the next decade, she gave birth to four children.
Then, one day in 2000, Hadi returned from a vacation in Egypt, where she had taken the children to spend time with her husband's family. In her Rome apartment was a new woman. Her husband had married again while she was gone.
"I returned and found her in my house," Hadi, 46, said. Hadi said she at first challenged her husband but then decided there was little she could do.
"He said,'I've married this woman.' I wanted to know why. I told him to send her away. He refused. But where could I go with four children?" She tried to accommodate the other woman, an Egyptian whom Hadi describes as full of hatred.
"I tried to accept her, for the children," Hadi said. "But she wasn't a woman with a brain."
Her husband's beatings got worse, landing Hadi repeatedly in the hospital. The pale scar on her chest is a remnant of the time she says he took after her with a knife."

we dont need the above problems here Australians take heed...

[wallabyedward]

Ania wrote:

<quoted text>
we dont need the above problems here Australians take heed...

Ania,

Men have been beating their wives and children in this country, just as severely, just as cruelly, since time in memoriam.

At 12 years old, I stood and watched my insane father, violently shake my 10 year old sister to death.

It was no different in many of my friends homes.

Australia is not without an ability to be criticised.

It's not all that long ago, just like Islamic women, our women were made to cover their heads when they entered a church and Nuns wore more clobber than an Islamic women.

Women still haven't achieved equality in this country, and I still see men abusing them as badly as the system does.

We need to change, we need to set an example that will inspire the women of Islam to want our lives, but there's no way we can sell that, whilst Australian men think their wife is their dog, someone to kick when they can't cope.

I don't argue that it appears Islamic women are suppressed, but who are we to criticise?

[Richie]

and why is holland a shithole?

Taser wrote:

<quoted text>
Gotcha. I'm glad you admited you are Australian. I wanted to draw you out. Now I have something to say to you, liberal.
I see straight through you. It is the likes of you who are the threat to the freedom and values of our people, culture and society.
You are the weak who use multiculturalism to defend practices no matter how repugnant, how vile, how damaging so you can pretend you are morally enlightened.
It is you who betray your fellow Australian's so that you can rub up your own ego by pretending to give a damn about freedom.
Take a look at Holland. What a sh*thole, best you stay where you are.

[Richie]

Dee, you must keep more to the facts of the convesation and have a view that is larger then the western world. What happens when your faced with the requirement to intergrate with other cultures?

Our cultures are becomming more entwined and you should be willing to accomodate this as other cultures have been "forced" to accomodate our values rather then stand on your soap box and impose your localised thoughts.

Have you considered (or even looked at) the works of Phillip Killbride, the path that led the curch to condem polygamy and the out of date reasons for this, just as they condem gay marriage, or the other cultures outside of the muslim religous world

The point of gay marriage serves as a question to you. If the law changes in Australia to allow gay marriage, yet the church keeps to condem this, on which side will you sit? Or will you just develop in your head what main stream Australia wants, and inform us of this?

remember that the only real Australian culture is that of the aboriginals, all other cultures have been imported. You should see this as a strength rather then a threat.

Oh and with the Inuits, unfortunatly you completly missed the point, a pity,but demonstrates your patients to explore the contents of an arguementive points.

Dee wrote:

<quoted text>
"Its sounds like your more interested in blindly upholding the law,"
I don't blindly uphold anything. If I uphold something, it's because I have thought about it and agree with it.
"rather then questioning its relevence to current social trends."
Polygamy is not relevent to current trends - the subject was only mentioned at all because yet another Muslim immigrant is making an attempt to change our society to suit Muslims.
"Look at why the recommendation for this change to the law is being made"
Please! It is 'recommended' by a Muslim cleric to suit his fellow Muslims who want more than one wife. Muslims know the law before they come to Australia - if they want multiple wives, stay home - don't come to a country where polygamy is against the law and then try to change it. Simple.
"to impose your own beliefs being current main majority:"
Let me assure you that the majority of Australians share my views.
"you should look at the inuits"
Why? The Inuits consisted of small bands of related families living a hunter-gatherer existence. How are they relevent to modern Western society?
"or even the 80's"
We have had freedoms taken away, I agree. But we still have more individual rights and freedom than any other culture in history.
"but don't expect society as a whole to go the same route."
I know that Australians will reject any calls for polygamy (or any other detrimental alien custom) to be legalised in this country.

[Dee]

Richie: "have a view that is larger then the western world."

Why? Maybe Australia should follow the example of the Netherlands and let in so many immigrants that the native Dutch will be a minority in their own country within 50 years if the tide isn't stopped.

"What happens when your faced with the requirement to intergrate with other cultures?

When do you figure that will happen? Immigrants come to Australia, not the other way around. I really don't see a time when we will adopt Third World values and customs. If these values are so desirable and successful, why do millions of people opt to migrate to Western countries?

"you should be willing to accomodate this as other cultures have been "forced" to accommodate.."

Who has been 'forced to accommodate' our values? Those who decide to immigrate to Australia should be prepared to adopt the values and abide by the laws of the country they have chosen to live in, just as I would do if I went to live in another country. I am not willing to accommodate values and customs I find repulsive and demeaning – like female circumcision or polygamy.

“Have you considered (or even looked at) the works of Phillip Killbride”

Why would I be interested in polygamy propaganda? Polygamy is most popular in cultures that are relatively backward and impoverished, like the Middle East and Africa. Why would anyone consider going back to this primitive form of marriage? The actress who plays one of the three wives on "Big Love" (propaganda for polygamy series) told Newsweek that she "had a hard time [understanding] why a woman would share her husband." She's not alone, that’s how most western women feel. We didn’t spend years fighting for equality only to become one of a herd of female cattle subject to the will of the head bull.

“Or will you just develop in your head what main stream Australia wants, and inform us of this?”

Obviously you have a comprehension problem. I distinctly recall saying that I make up my own mind about issues. Whether or not my opinion agrees with the mainstream opinion is irrelevant to me – but in the case of polygamy, I agree with the mainstream opinion, or maybe it agrees with me – Australians do not want or need polygamy.

“The point of gay marriage serves as a question to you”

Why? Gay marriage is not the subject under discussion.

“Oh and with the Inuits, unfortunatly you completly missed the point,”

And your point was? That the Inuits had more individual freedom than the modern Westerner? That’s a matter of opinion, and depends on how ‘freedom’ is defined. Or were you referring to their wife-exchanging customs and suggesting we adopt them?

“remember that the only real Australian culture is that of the aboriginals, all other cultures have been imported.”

Modern Australia was created by settlers from the UK and Europe. There are two cultures in Australia – the original Aboriginal culture and the Anglo/Celt culture that built modern Australia. Our official language is English, and always will be; our laws derive from those of Britain, and that won’t change either.

[Richie]

Dee, I think unfortunatly that your one of the few that doesn't see how the culture imposement on the aboriginals completly change their lives, how whilst your law came from Britain it doesn't make your current legal system British
and the fact that your not willing to look at what you term "propaganda" means that you forever only have the side of the story that you wish to see. oh and public opinon is not what you and a couple of your friends think, but what the majority does, you have an official poll on what Australians think of this subject?
As for your comments on the countries being backwards and improvished, how many of these have your personally visited? or are you commenting on the latest CNN reports? Do you even know the population numbers for The Netherlands, have you even been here??? The worlds a different place when you see it for real.

Over and out Dee, have a good life, and try to look outside of your front yard ;) because one day, the people you don't know or even don't like may be your neighbours, and if you continue to shoot from the hip, then your views, whether their smart or not, will only be disregarded.

Dee wrote:

Richie: "have a view that is larger then the western world."

[Kazzi]

Richie wrote:

Dee, I think unfortunatly that your one of the few that doesn't see how the culture imposement on the aboriginals completly change their lives, how whilst your law came from Britain it doesn't make your current legal system British
and the fact that your not willing to look at what you term "propaganda" means that you forever only have the side of the story that you wish to see. oh and public opinon is not what you and a couple of your friends think, but what the majority does, you have an official poll on what Australians think of this subject?
As for your comments on the countries being backwards and improvished, how many of these have your personally visited? or are you commenting on the latest CNN reports? Do you even know the population numbers for The Netherlands, have you even been here??? The worlds a different place when you see it for real.
Over and out Dee, have a good life, and try to look outside of your front yard ;) because one day, the people you don't know or even don't like may be your neighbours, and if you continue to shoot from the hip, then your views, whether their smart or not, will only be disregarded.
<quoted text>

This topic is propaganda.

Do you base all your beliefs on Philip Kilbride (one L only, Kil not Kill)?

I believe this thread is a pretty good indication of how Aussies feel about 'this subject'.

[INDEPENDENT]

The best indicators available to date about the levels of violence against women in Australia are from the 1996 ABS publication Women's Safety Survey and the more recent ABS Personal Safety Survey 2005 that surveyed both men and women. The surveys asked women about their experiences of violence and found that:

*
5.8 per cent of women had experienced violence in the 12 month period preceding the survey in 2005 compared with 7.1 per cent in 1996
*
4.7 per cent of these women had experienced physical violence (this includes physical assault and threat of physical assault) in 2005 compared with 5.9 per cent in 1996, and 1.6 per cent had experienced sexual violence (this includes sexual assault and threat of sexual assault) compared to 1.5 per cent in 1996
*
Of the women who experienced sexual violence during the 12 months prior to the 2005 survey 21 per cent had experienced sexual assault by a previous partner in the most recent incident, and 39 per cent by a family member or friend
*
The 2005 survey also showed that of those women who were physically assaulted in the 12 months prior to the survey, 38 per cent were physically assaulted by their male current or previous partner. Of the women who had experienced violence by a current partner, 10 per cent had a violence order issued against their current partner and of those women who had violence orders issued, 20 per cent reported that violence still occur.