Aussie restlessness echoes in U.S.

[Johnson]

Hello Moiz Qidwai, i trust you are well,i do not get a look in on this forum as much these days ,work commitments,thought i might add my 2 cents worth.

"About the Oil prices, if I had any control, I would bring it down. The main reason according to me is USA‘s war on Afghanistan and Iraq and its continuous threats to Iran. If YOU could do some thing to solve that problem, may be the oil prices could come down to their normal levels.

Right now in Saudi Arabia we are in grip of uncontrolled inflation on every item except Gasoline prices!!"

I Suspect iraq may be a factor,but major reason is the rise of China and developing third world economies ,while usa is busy spending its money on the situation in iraq and sinking into recession ,China is moving on up.By 2020 China will either be in a state of crisis and near collapse, or the next world power along with europe, russia and usa and later in the century probably brazil and even india .

The irony in all this is that bin laden has landed a much larger blow on usa ,than he ever expected,because of the usa's overreaction to his 9/11 attack.

Instead of dealing with their internal problems (sub prime crisis) and the economic threat from China,they are 'securing' iraq and 'stabilising' the region, LOL.

Why? The rise of usa as the great industrial power is intimately linked with oil,indeed ,as it is for China's rise now.Bin laden was the catalyst that crystallized usa's actions in middle east post 9/11,it has been an unmitigated disaster for usa and they are not out of the sand trap yet.

Having said all that,i have a great respect for the usa ,and their ability to rise ,phoenix like, from the ashes.Their Democracy is robust,and while they appear,due to a preoccupation with the media circus, to have the attention span of a gnat,they are much tougher and more resilient than some other countries give them credit.

I know their will be howls of protest,from some quarters, when i make this statement,but looking at world history for the last 150 years and the usa's influence ,both positive and negative.IMHO the world would be a much worse place to live in without the usa.

I may not be able to answer you ,if you reply, as i have a lot of work at present,but i look forward to reading your reply.

Enjoy your Day, Moiz Qidwai.

[Moiz Qidwai]

Johnson wrote:

Hello Moiz Qidwai, i trust you are well,i do not get a look in on this forum as much these days ,work commitments,thought i might add my 2 cents worth.
I Suspect iraq may be a factor,but major reason is the rise of China and developing third world economies ,while usa is busy spending its money on the situation in iraq and sinking into recession ,China is moving on up.By 2020 China will either be in a state of crisis and near collapse, or the next world power along with europe, russia and usa and later in the century probably brazil and even india .
..
I may not be able to answer you ,if you reply, as i have a lot of work at present,but i look forward to reading your reply.
Enjoy your Day, Moiz Qidwai.

Well I am not an expert on economy, but I can understand demand and supply. You cannot say that within a short time, the world consumption of oil has gone up 10 or 15 fold!!

The reason is the threat to oil resources and where the so called “War on Terror” is the factor. India and China are not big world consumers to sky rocket the world oil price from $20 to $135 a Barrel. It is in their own interest to keep the price down to help their economy.

You may wish disaster for China or India, but as per me, both will continue to grow till they become World Super Powers and replace Britain, and France from that pedestal. They both have what it makes a super power. A Big Land Mass, A Bulging Population, Increased literacy and industry and no wars for a foreseeable time.!!!

It is still to be proven in a court of law that Bin Laden was responsible for 9/11 attacks. His trial and punishment has so far been my media and politicians. Unless a court finds someone guilty, he is only a suspect. You said USA overreacted for 9/11, I say, they did not reacted at all!!

The prime suspect is still roaming and issuing “Anniversary Tapes”. USA attacked Talibans, who were not at all related to 9/11 attacks!!! What type of reaction (Over or under) it was ? Then how could one justify attack on Iraq and its link with 9/11?

Yes I agree USA is a great country and source of much good to the world. But unfortunately it has been hijacked by a small minority community, called Zionists. They control most of its biggest Newspaper chains, Magazine Chains, Film and Video industry and Financial houses. They are leading USA to a particular ideological path, which will mean destruction to it and all the good it has done for the world.

Past two or three decades have not been good for USA and the world. And it is during these decades that these Zionists have become most powerful. They are leading USA towards moral and economical bankruptcy.

But like any Empire thru out history, the peak of its power is also the sign for its decline. The same holds for USA also, it has proven unworthy to be the sole Superpower of this earth.

Unless it breaks it shackles and becomes one more a free country, its role as world leader is finished.

If you want to see the Zionists Power in US politics. Just look at the current Presidential Election. How each of the candidates are tying themselves into knots in front of Zionist and Jewish lobbies and each trying to outdo each other to be their best friends!!! Disgusting? But you say it is Robust Democracy!!!

Have a nice day.

[Moiz Qidwai]

To: Madam Dee

Episode 11 A “Sources of Quran (Contd.)

Did Quran have its info from Bible and / or Apocrypha Books?

To its opponents it is the easiest way out to claim that the prophet did a poor copy of tales from OT & NT books and then presented them as revelation coming from God. From outside, there are some similarities between Biblical and Quranic stories, but if we look carefully, we find there are major differences between the two versions, which cannot be explained easily.

Sometimes they say some of information presented in Quran came from books of Apocrypha, some from Greek Philosopher’s writings, some from Egyptian, Chinese and Indian sources and so on. They fail to realize that the prophet did not know how to read or how to write. In Makkah there was no public library where all these books were available for any one to check, that too in Arabic language.

If there was any tutor, he must have been extremely knowledgeable of Biblical and Apocrypha books, Greek, Roman and Egyptian philosophies. How such a tutor remained hidden for full 23 years during prophet’s life and even afterwards is a real mystery.

Then if you look carefully, there are many things in Quran that are never even mentioned in Bible (or Apocrypha or any other Philosophy), how they came about? Were these the brain work of prophet?

Then we must also remember that in whole Quran there is not a single verbatim quotation from any Arabic Bible, therefore the prophet or his tutor did not had access to Arabic Bible at all (To make their lives easier so to say).

Another amazing thing is the info from Bible which is not reproduced in Quran? This so called “Partial Selection” is the outstanding feature of Quran. To confirm a part of story and to reject or keep silent on another part demands that so called “Editor” was fully aware of the past, present or future pitfalls of these portions.

I will give you some examples:

1. Both Bible and Quran say that God created heavens and earths in six days. Bible gives details of what was created on each day and is very explicit on that. Those details are proven very unscientific now. In Quran the six days are vague and could be interpreted as six epochs of long periods, details of creation given in Quran have no problems with modern science.

2. Bible says God rested on seventh day and was refreshed. Quran says that God did not feel any fatigue from all this creation work. Quranic version is more suited to the majesty of God.

3. Bible calls God in many places as Lord of Israel, Jews are called as “Chosen People and Chosen Race”, In Quran God is not even once referred to as “Lord of Arabs” at no place Arabs are mentioned as Chosen People or Chosen Race. God is always referred to as Lord of the Worlds. People are classified as Believers, Non-believers or Hypocrites, based on their actions, and not on their births.

4. Bible is silent on prophets or books send to other people or other nations. Quran mentions that God sent His messengers and His Books to all nations and to all people. Then Quran says that all prophets preached the same message. In matters of beliefs all prophets were identical. The only differences were in the matters of practices, where there could be some differences between the teachings of prophets. This is a more practical and sensible approach, than restricting all blessings of God to a single race or nation.

I will give more examples from the lives of individual prophets, to highlight this issue still further.

Please put your comment on this episode

[Dee]

Moiz Qidwai wrote:

<quoted text>
If you cannot understand a simple world “Like it” then how you would do it. It means a book in Arabic language that has the beauty and excellence of Quran so that Experts could say these look similar.
You are beating around the bush for Counselor. You will not do logical things as I told and continue with your rhetoric.
“Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost” the present translations say “Comforter, which is the holy spirit” and every true prophet is a true spirit as every false prophet is a false spirit. The Jesus said, that holy spirit will teach you all things. On Pentecost day, the holy spirit did not teach any new things to the disciples. There are many such discrepancies if we equate Holy Spirit with the Counselor.
If you look carefully the words “Which is the Holy Ghost” was a sort of explanation or parenthesis added by some one to the words used by Jesus. Holy Ghost was well known to Jesus, why would he use the word “Counselor” to confuse his disciples? Jesus was speaking of “Another Counselor” meaning someone like Jesus, a man and not a spooky spirit.
Paul’s conversion was self-made. He describes it at three places and at all three places it is different. At one place he says that those around him only saw the light but did not hear any thing, at another place he says those around him did not see light but heard the world and at another place he says they all fell to the ground.
Whatever might have happened, if he had reformed, he would have gone to chosen disciples of Jesus, who were alive and learnt from them the message of Jesus. What he did was immediately start preaching his own logic and message, which was materially different from Jesus’.
Mohammad’s (PBUH) case is totally different. He claimed he saw an angel and declared that he is prophet. He brought new message and claimed revelation. If you want to say the Paul was a prophet and received revelation from God, then say so. Then his teachings shall be his and his followers will be called “Pauline” and not “Christians”
Gospel of Barnabas might or might not be a forgery. The same charge could be laid an any of your books. It was mentioned in the list of banned books. It might not be preserved in its original condition (as none of the Biblical books might have been). But it gives you a version different from Paul’s. Have you read it? Please do not read it as you read Quran (to find defects in it), read it at bed time before you go to sleep.

MUQ: "It means a book in Arabic language that has the beauty and excellence of Quran so that Experts could say these look similar."

This falls apart when you try to define it. What 'experts' decide on this beauty and excellence? They decide on behalf of everyone else? And why should anyone but Arabs accept that God is an Arab? The beauty of the Arabic may be as you say, but in translation it sounds stilted and confusing. I still don't comprehend why producing another book 'like the Quran' proves anything.

MUQ: "the words “Which is the Holy Ghost” was a sort of explanation or parenthesis added by some one to the words used by Jesus."

And you know this how? Who is the 'someone' who supposedly added these words? Is this one of the 'corrupt' bits of the Bible? Jesus told the disciples to wait in Jerusalam and He would send the Comforter to them. If Muslims are correct in their claims, Jesus deliberately lied to his disciples. I don't think so.

MUQ: "would he use the word “Counselor” to confuse his disciples?"

It is Muslims who are confused - because they completely fail to understand. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to COMFORT the disciples in their loss.'Spooky spirit'? There is the proof of your lack of comprehension. How do you explain Jesus words that the Comforter would come to them 'in a few days'? Did someone else invent those words too?

[Dee]

MUQ: "You will not do logical things as I told and continue with your rhetoric."

I am not indulging in 'rhetoric', I am telling you that Muslims claims are too weak to be taken seriously and explaining why. And you continue to repeat the same claims instead of accepting what I say. Repetition will not strengthen your claims.

MUQ: "Paul’s conversion was self-made."

Why? Why would Paul, who hated and persecuted Christians, suddenly decide to convert to Christianity? What was his gain?

MUQ: "He describes it at three places and at all three places it is different."

This is common in visions. Some people see things, others do not. Some hear things, others do not. Research the miracle of Fatima which happened in front of thousands of people - they did not all see the same thing.

MUQ: "What he did was immediately start preaching his own logic and message, which was materially different from Jesus’.

Then why wasn't he stopped from changing the message of Jesus by the church and by the disciples who were still alive?

MUQ: "If you want to say the Paul was a prophet and received revelation from God, then say so."

I don't much care either way. Paul claimed that he received a revelation from God - how am I to say that he didn't?

MUQ: "Gospel of Barnabas might or might not be a forgery"

It was made in the 14th century and is widely accpted as a forgery.

MUQ: "It was mentioned in the list of banned books"

Of course it's banned - it is a forgery. When the Bible was complied, this book did not exist.

[Dee]

MUQ: "They fail to realize that the prophet did not know how to read or how to write.'

Alan Jones writes in his introduction to Rodwell's translation of the Quran in "The Koran"

"… The most commonly accepted view is that Muhammad received most of his information about biblical stories through informants who talked to him; that this material was digested, meditated on and then absorbed into what became the text.
There are two passages in the Quran itself that support this view.

The first is Q. 16:103: "We also know that they say, "Surely, a certain person teacheth him". But the tongue of him at whom they hint is foreign while this is in plain Arabic."

Secondly, Q. 25:4 reads: "And the infidels say "This is a mere fraud of his own devising, and others have helped him with it, who had come hither with outrage and lie"."

The allegation of fraud is strongly denied in Q. 25:6: "Say, "He hath set it down Who knoweth the secrets of Heaven and Earth.""; but the question of help is ignored.

It should be added that there is some corroboration in Hadith that Muhammad received stories and information from various individuals, including Jews and Christians, and that the material he received from them found its way into Quranic form."

MUQ: "Bible is silent on prophets or books send to other people or other nations."

Hardly.

"Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea." -- Rev. 1:11.

Acts 1:8:“But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

Before Pentecost the disciples are held back from preaching but after the Holy Spirit enters into them they are sent into the world to spread the teaching of Jesus.

[Johnson]

Moiz Qidwai wrote:

<quoted text>
Well I am not an expert on economy, but I can understand demand and supply. You cannot say that within a short time, the world consumption of oil has gone up 10 or 15 fold!!

The reason is the threat to oil resources and where the so called “War on Terror” is the factor. India and China are not big world consumers to sky rocket the world oil price from $20 to $135 a Barrel. It is in their own interest to keep the price down to help their economy.
You may wish disaster for China or India, but as per me, both will continue to grow till they become World Super Powers and replace Britain, and France from that pedestal. They both have what it makes a super power. A Big Land Mass, A Bulging Population, Increased literacy and industry and no wars for a foreseeable time.!!!
It is still to be proven in a court of law that Bin Laden was responsible for 9/11 attacks. His trial and punishment has so far been my media and politicians. Unless a court finds someone guilty, he is only a suspect. You said USA overreacted for 9/11, I say, they did not reacted at all!!
The prime suspect is still roaming and issuing “Anniversary Tapes”. USA attacked Talibans, who were not at all related to 9/11 attacks!!! What type of reaction (Over or under) it was ? Then how could one justify attack on Iraq and its link with 9/11?
Yes I agree USA is a great country and source of much good to the world. But unfortunately it has been hijacked by a small minority community, called Zionists. They control most of its biggest Newspaper chains, Magazine Chains, Film and Video industry and Financial houses. They are leading USA to a particular ideological path, which will mean destruction to it and all the good it has done for the world.
Past two or three decades have not been good for USA and the world. And it is during these decades that these Zionists have become most powerful. They are leading USA towards moral and economical bankruptcy.
But like any Empire thru out history, the peak of its power is also the sign for its decline. The same holds for USA also, it has proven unworthy to be the sole Superpower of this earth.
Unless it breaks it shackles and becomes one more a free country, its role as world leader is finished.
If you want to see the Zionists Power in US politics. Just look at the current Presidential Election. How each of the candidates are tying themselves into knots in front of Zionist and Jewish lobbies and each trying to outdo each other to be their best friends!!! Disgusting? But you say it is Robust Democracy!!!
Have a nice day.

Hello Moiz Qidwai,

I see where you are coming from ,in regards to oil production now in iraq ,compared to where it was going to be before iraq war, and that has had a large impact on the oil price at present,valid point.I do not think oil is going back to 'normal' levels,at least not in the long term.

I wish China no ill will on its drive to first world status,the sheer magnitude and speed at which they are moving IMO makes them vulnerable to severe civil unrest.India has much infrastructure problems to overcome,but once again,i wish them the best.

Taliban actively supported and harboured bin laden,i have no problems with their removal from power in afganistan.The sooner bin laden is captured and put on trial the better.

Iraq is a different matter,leading usa into war, on what has turned out to be a fishing expedition, based on dubious information ,looking for weapons of mass destruction,well ,usa have reaped the whirlwind ,that is what comes from hubris.

Your remarks about usa and the 'zionist conspiracy'.Frankly ,i just feel at the moment, that i cannot dignify your remarks with a comment.
Suffice to say,that the more i see of humanity,the more i love my dog.

Good evening ,Moiz Qidwai

[Johnson]

Moiz Qidwai wrote:

<quoted text>
Well I am not an expert on economy, but I can understand demand and supply. You cannot say that within a short time, the world consumption of oil has gone up 10 or 15 fold!!
The reason is the threat to oil resources and where the so called “War on Terror” is the factor. India and China are not big world consumers to sky rocket the world oil price from $20 to $135 a Barrel. It is in their own interest to keep the price down to help their economy.
You may wish disaster for China or India, but as per me, both will continue to grow till they become World Super Powers and replace Britain, and France from that pedestal. They both have what it makes a super power. A Big Land Mass, A Bulging Population, Increased literacy and industry and no wars for a foreseeable time.!!!
It is still to be proven in a court of law that Bin Laden was responsible for 9/11 attacks. His trial and punishment has so far been my media and politicians. Unless a court finds someone guilty, he is only a suspect. You said USA overreacted for 9/11, I say, they did not reacted at all!!
The prime suspect is still roaming and issuing “Anniversary Tapes”. USA attacked Talibans, who were not at all related to 9/11 attacks!!! What type of reaction (Over or under) it was ? Then how could one justify attack on Iraq and its link with 9/11?
Yes I agree USA is a great country and source of much good to the world. But unfortunately it has been hijacked by a small minority community, called Zionists. They control most of its biggest Newspaper chains, Magazine Chains, Film and Video industry and Financial houses. They are leading USA to a particular ideological path, which will mean destruction to it and all the good it has done for the world.
Past two or three decades have not been good for USA and the world. And it is during these decades that these Zionists have become most powerful. They are leading USA towards moral and economical bankruptcy.
But like any Empire thru out history, the peak of its power is also the sign for its decline. The same holds for USA also, it has proven unworthy to be the sole Superpower of this earth.
Unless it breaks it shackles and becomes one more a free country, its role as world leader is finished.
If you want to see the Zionists Power in US politics. Just look at the current Presidential Election. How each of the candidates are tying themselves into knots in front of Zionist and Jewish lobbies and each trying to outdo each other to be their best friends!!! Disgusting? But you say it is Robust Democracy!!!
Have a nice day.

Hello Moiz Qidwai,

I see where you are coming from ,in regards to oil production now in iraq ,compared to where it was going to be ,before iraq war, and that has had a large impact on the oil price at present,valid point.
Oil production ,supply and pricing ,is a complex structure,and many factors must be taken into account.

I wish China no ill will on its drive to first world status,the sheer magnitude and speed at which they are moving IMO makes them vulnerable to severe civil unrest.India has much infrastructure problems to overcome,but once again,i wish them the best.

Taliban actively supported and harboured bin laden,i have no problems with their removal from power in afganistan.I would be pleased to see bin laden captured and put on trial.

Iraq is a different matter,leading usa into war, on what has turned out to be a fishing expedition, based on dubious information ,looking for weapons of mass destruction,well ,usa have reaped the whirlwind ,that is what comes from hubris.

Your remarks about usa and the 'zionist conspiracy'.Frankly ,i just feel at the moment, that i cannot dignify your remarks with a comment.
Suffice to say, the more i see of humanity,the more i love my dog.

Good evening ,Moiz Qidwai

[Moiz Qidwai]

Dee wrote:

<quoted text>
This falls apart when you try to define it. What 'experts' decide on this beauty and excellence? They decide on behalf of everyone else? And why should anyone but Arabs accept that God is an Arab?... Did someone else invent those words too?

The Word of God is the Arabic Quran and not its translations. The comparison there fore shall be in Arabic language. The Experts could be Linguistic Arabs, Muslims or Non Muslims

There were many “Some ones” who were editing your books. Why don’t you ask the experts of Higher Biblical Criticism?

Holy Spirit and comforter are two different entities and there is nothing common between them. Holy spirit was coming and going before Jesus, during Jesus’ life and after Jesus. Comforter was a special thing that was to come after Jesus and complete his mission.

You have asked what the motive of Paul in converting to Christianity was. Only God knows the real motives, but we can make a calculated guess. Paul was an avowed enemy of Jesus and Christians. Initially he tried to finish the Christianity by using brute force.

When he did not succeed, he tried to undermine it from the inside. He told every one that he saw Jesus in a vision and is now converted to their cause. Then he started preaching his own teachings that were different from the message of Jesus. He took care to preach his messages to non-Jews frist, those who were not familiar with the Jewish scriptures and its terminology.

He started by raising the stature of Jesus, equating him with God. To non-Jews and Romans, Sons, Daughters and Wives of God were a familiar terminology, they took them literally. Slowly the percentage of Non Jew Christians started increasing and Paul’s teachings started taking roots amongst the masses.

The original chosen disciples of Jesus were all Jews and they preached their message to Jews only. Initially they did not realized the changes which Paul was trying to make and they supported him. When they came to know the real dangers, they opposed teachings of Paul. That is why Jerusalem counsel took place in which the Disciples agreed to relax temporarily Jewish laws for Non Jews.

Paul took that as Carte Blanche and abolished Moses laws and regulation for ever. It is interesting to note that from that time onwards, there is hardly any mention of any disciples in the book of acts.

But the struggle between the two factions for superiority continued for three centuries, till the Nicea Counsel accepted Pauline version as the official religion of the state and it was enforced thru out Roman Empire.

Jews tried similar technique to undermine Islam also, when a group of them converted to Islam and started raising the stature of Ali, the cousin of prophet, beyond his limits. They could not succeed fully, because Quran, the Word of God was fully preserved and there were a large number of Companions of prophet and their disciples, which did not allow Islam’s teachings to be diluted. Still it resulted in forming Shia Sect in Islam, which has dome more harm to Islam and its cause than all the enemies of Islam could do jointly.

Instead of arguing about the authenticity of Gospel of Barnabas, why don’t you read it silently during night hours. Check if it answers many of your queries about Jesus. A thing being a fourteenth century forgery and a thing being third or forth century forgery have some things in common!!!

[Moiz Qidwai]

Dee wrote:

Alan Jones writes in his introduction to Rodwell's translation of the Quran in "The Koran"
"… The most commonly accepted view is that Muhammad received most of his information about biblical stories through informants who talked to him; that this material was digested, meditated on and then absorbed into what became the text.
...Before Pentecost the disciples are held back from preaching but after the Holy Spirit enters into them they are sent into the world to spread the teaching of Jesus.

So you say that prophet received the information from informants and then presented them as revelations from God. Let us check how it matches with the prophet’s entire life and his known character.

A man acting so shall be a liar of highest order, one who lies against God. The prophet never spoke a lie during his lifetime, why would he stoop so low now?

Then who were these informers? Why would they remain anonymous thru out the life of prophet? The prophet remained in Makkah 13 years and in Medina 10 years, he had these informers all this time and no body got wise to their identity?

Then if these informers were teaching him about Biblical stories, how come the Quranic versions are different from Biblical versions? If the prophet was editing and changing their messages, why they did not complain? What hold prophet had over these informers? They would easily have gone to his enemies and told that they indeed fed the prophet with these messages.

These charges are mentioned in Quran and dealt with along with other charges that prophet was a liar, a poet, a soothsayer etc. To you these charges mentioned in Quran carry weight and hundreds of places where Quran expressively confirms that it was God’s Word carry no meanings?

Then there are stories from past prophets in Quran, which are not at all mentioned in Biblical books, what about these? Inside information theory answers some points, but does not answer all points.

If based on these half cooked information, prophet was able to present a book like Quran, why could others not do the same thing? Then how come these edited stories are more powerful and instructive than the originals from where they were copied? A pupil getting above his teacher?

That is why I said that you have to keep on changing your stand, to explain all the episodes of prophet’s life.

Only one stand will fit all the problems and that is the prophet was speaking the truth when he said that this is the information, which came to me by revelation!!!

[dee]

Calm down. If you write posts questioning the religion of others and stating that their beliefs are false, you should expect your own beliefs to be brought under the same scrutiny.

MUQ: "So you say that prophet received the information from informants"

*I* did not say it, Western scholars have agreed that this is the case.

MUQ" "then presented them as revelations from God."

Nobody said this - Western scholars have researched information given in the Quran and found that a lot of it is taken from Judaism and Christianity, but in a garbled fashion.

The revelations from Allah seem to be in two parts - the first revelation in the cave, and the revelations given at intervals during the life of Mohammed. Many Western readers of the Quran have noted that the later revelations are very convenient for Mohammed (like the one where Allah gives Mohammed permission to take as many wives as he wishes). Do Muslims not find this just a bit self-serving and convenient? It's strange to us that so many revelations seem to be for the sole benefit of Mohammed.

MUQ: "Then who were these informers?"

The term 'informant' just means people Mohammed had met, conversed with and listened to throughout his earlier life.

MUQ: "If the prophet was editing and changing their messages, why they did not complain?"

Complain to whom? Who said Mohammed edited or changed their messages? In fact, what messages do you mean? Western scholars believe that Mohammed absorbed legends and bits of scripture from Christians and Jews, and presented some of this in the Quran, not that there was some kind of plan by his enemies to feed him information.

MUQ: "hundreds of places where Quran expressively confirms that it was God’s Word carry no meanings?"

As I have stated many times, there is only the word of Mohammed that he was visited by an angel who dictated the Quran. You are trying to prove that the Quran is the word of God by referring to the Quran. Flawed methodology and circular reasoning. It's like saying,'Robert is a great painter.''How do you know that'? someone asks. And you reply,'Robert told me so'.

MUQ: "why could others not do the same thing?"

This test (a book 'like the Quran') is meaningless, since it does not explain in what way the book is meant to be like the Quran. That's possibly why nobody has taken the challenge, nobody can figure out what it really means.

[dee]

MUQ: "Why don’t you ask the experts of Higher Biblical Criticism?"

Why don't you tell me, since Muslims claim to know more about Christianity than Western Biblical experts.

MUQ: "Holy Spirit and comforter are two different entities and there is nothing common between them"

Anyone who has read the Bible, or understands the first thing about Christianity, knows that this claim is completely false. Ignore or twist the words of the Bible as much as you wish, the words and their meaning are perfectly clear. Jesus was not speaking of a person to come at a later date.
I don't intend to continue arguing this point, believe as you wish.

MUQ: "When they came to know the real dangers, they opposed teachings of Paul"

Paul made the reasonable and logical argument that non-Jews should not be forced to abide by Jewish customs. He declared that the message of Jesus was for the whole world, not only for Jews. This claim is consistent with the words of Jesus, who told His disciples that they would spread His teachings to all humanity. The Council gave in because they realised that Paul was right.

MUQ: "He started by raising the stature of Jesus, equating him with God."

Jesus Himself declared that he was the Son of God. It seems obvious that Muslims hate Paul and try to undermine him whenever possible because if Paul is right, Mohammed is wrong.

MUQ: "He took care to preach his messages to non-Jews frist"

So there is something sinister in this? The message of Jesus was meant for the whole world. By preaching to non-Jews, Paul signified that it was time to begin carrying out the true work that Jesus intended.

MUQ: "Instead of arguing about the authenticity of Gospel of Barnabas"

I am not arguing about anything, I am telling you that it's a 14th century forgery. As well as being examined by many experts and historians, all of whom agree that it is not genuine, there is no mention of this book by any ancient author or authority. That's because it did not exist until the 14th century. And what makes you think I haven't read it?

[dee]

MUQ: the 'Gospel of Barnabas' is yet another attempt by Muslims to hijack Christianity.

"The Gospel of Barnabas is a work purporting to be a depiction of the life of Jesus by his disciple Barnabas. Two known manuscripts have been dated to the late sixteenth century, and are written respectively in Italian and in Spanish; although the Spanish version survives now only in an eighteenth century copy. It is about the same length as the four canonical gospels put together (the Italian manuscript has 222 chapters); with the bulk being devoted to an account of Jesus' ministry, much of it harmonised from accounts also found in the canonical gospels. In some respects, it conforms to the Islamic interpretation of Christian origins....

This work should not be confused with the surviving Epistle of Barnabas, which may have been written in 2nd century Alexandria. There is no link between the two books in style, content or history other than their supposed attribution to Barnabas."

"The Gospel is considered by the majority of academics (including Christians and some Muslims) to be late and pseudepigraphical; however, some academics suggest that it may contain some remnants of an earlier apocryphal work edited to conform to Islam, perhaps Gnostic (Cirillo, Ragg) or Ebionite (Pines) or Diatessaronic (Joosten); and some Muslim scholars consider the surviving versions as transmitting a suppressed apostolic original. Some Islamic organizations cite it in support of the Islamic view of Jesus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Barnab...

[dee]

MUQ: re St Paul. If Muslims are correct in their claim that Paul's true mission was to subvert the teachings of Jesus, he paid a terrible personal price. Hard to believe that he willingly sacrificed his life solely for the evil purpose of changing the teachings of Jesus and destroying Christianity. Muslims seem to choose the hardest path - instead of accepting what is obvious and reasonable, they concoct unlikely theories and twist the words of the Bible in an attempt to support and 'prove' these theories.

"He [Paul] was baptized and went to Arabia for three years of prayer and reflection.

Returning to Jerusalem, the apostles were wary of him until St. Barnabas perceived his sincerity. A tireless missionary and elegant writer, he led a dangerous and adventurous life on behalf of Christ. He worked in Jerusalem, Antioch, Cyprus, Asia Minor, Greece, Ephesus (where he wrote I Corinthians), Macedonia, and Achaia (where he wrote Romans.)

Upon his return to Jerusalem, he was attacked and imprisoned for his preaching and invoked the privilege of his Roman citizenship to be tried in Rome. On his way, he was shipwrecked at Malta. Finally reaching Rome, he was kept in house arrest for two years awaiting trial and wrote the four "captivity" epistles.

Presumably acquitted, he returned to Ephesus, and may have gone to Spain. According to tradition, he was beheaded in Rome during the persecution of Nero and is buried where the basilica of St. Paul's "outside the walls" now stands. The date of his death is thought to be June 29, 65 AD." -- http://stpaulsparish.org/St_Paul_bio.html

So Paul fooled everyone, including the apostles, into believing in his sincerity? He must have been a great actor. And he managed to keep fooling people throughout his whole life? Some people of that time disagreed with Paul, but nobody ever questioned his sincere belief in his calling, or his belief in Jesus.

[dee]

MUQ: "Then who were these informers?"

These are some people who influenced Mohammed.

* Imrul Qays - an ancient Arabian poet who died a few decades before Mohammed's birth

* Zayd b. Amr b. Naufal - an 'apostate' of his time who preached and propagated Hanifism

* Labid - a poet

* Hasan b. Thabit - Mohammed's official poet

* Salman, the Persian - Mohammed's confidante and advisor

* Bahira - a Nestoraian Christian monk of the Syrian church

* Jabr - a Christian neighbour

* Ibn Qumta - a Christian slave

*Khadijah - Mohammed's first wife (a polytheist)

* Waraqa - Khadijah's cousin's brother

Ubay b. Ka'b - Mohammed's secretary and a Qur'an scribe

* The Sabeans (who observed 7 prayers daily, 5 of which were at the same hours as chosen by Mohammed)

* Aisha - Mohammed's child bride

* Abdallah b. Salam b. al-Harith - a Jewish convert to Islam

Mukhyariq - a Rabbi and Jewish convert to Islam

"The unbelievers consider the Qur'an as the tales of the ancients..." 8:31

"The unbelievers said that the revelations to Muhammad were the tales from the past..."

"Many pagans had heard the story of resurrection from past tales..."

"Disbelievers say 'the Qur'an is ancient tales which they had heard before'..."

"The unbelievers insist that Qur'an is tales from the past..."

"The unbelievers say the Qur'an is nothing but the tales of the ancients..."

"The unbelievers termed Muhammad's revelations as tales from the past..."

Non-Muslims -'unbelievers'- claim they had already heard the same tales before the Quran. Were they all lying?

[dee]

MUQ: Here is a brief list of some of the materials in the Qur'an that Mohammed is believed to have copied/adopted from the Christians, the Jews, the Armenians, the Hindus and the Zoroastrians:

* Tayammum (4:43): Copied from the Talmud.

* Breathing life into birds (2:260, 3:49, 5:110): Copied from the Coptic books.

* Houris, Azazil (44:54): Learned from foreigners in Mecca.

* Harut amd Marut (2:102): From the Armenians - Harut and Marut are in control of wind and rain.

* Allah's throne above water (11:7): From the Jewish tradition.

* Malik, the ruler of Hell (43:77): From the Jews.

* 7 Heavens (2:29, 41:12): Adopted from the Sanskrit Scripture of the Hindus.

* Mary giving birth under the trunk of a tree (19:23): Copied from the Gospel of Infancy, an apocryphal Christian Gospel.

* Infant Jesus talking (3:46, 19:30-31, 19:33): Copied from the Gospel of Infancy.

* Description of Paradise and Hell (many verses - see the section on Salman, the Persian: Copied from the Zoroastrians and the Hindus).

* Jesus not killed, but 'lifted up by Allah'(3:55, 4:157-158): Copied from the Gospel of Barnabas (a forgery).

* The story of Joseph (Sura 12): Copied from the Midrash, a Jewish Scripture.

* The story of Solomon and Sheba (21:78-82, 27:17-19, 27:22-23): Copied from the Haggada, a Jewish Scripture.

* The original Qur'an is kept in Heaven (43:4, 85:21-22): The Talmud says it is a preserved tablet in Heaven.

* Angel of death--Azrail or Azazil, Malaku'l Maut (6:61, 7:37, 32:11): Adopted from the Jewish and the Zoroastrian scriptures.

Re:'A book like the Quran'- I am quite puzzled by this requirement as proof that the Quran is the word of God, but supposedly, Mohammed's neighbour An-Nadr b. al-Harith wrote verses similar to the Qur'an. He also related ancient fables and was so good at story-telling that when Mohammed gathered people to listen to his tales, an-Nadr would entice the audience with better stories. Mohammed had his revenge by capturing An-Nadr in the battle of Badr and later beheading him.

Correct?

[dee]

* Jesus not killed, but 'lifted up by Allah'(3:55, 4:157-158): Copied from the Gospel of Barnabas (a forgery).

My mistake - should have been 'remnants of an earlier apocryphal work'(Gnostic, Ebionite or Diatessaronic) not the medieval forgery, which obviously did not exist when the Quran was compiled.

[Moiz Qidwai]

Johnson wrote:

<quoted text>
Hello Moiz Qidwai,
I see where you are coming from ,in regards to oil production now in iraq ,compared to where it was going to be ,before iraq war, and that has had a large impact on the oil price at present,valid point.
Oil production ,supply and pricing ,is a complex structure,and many factors must be taken into account.
I wish China no ill will on its drive to first world status,the sheer magnitude and speed at which they are moving IMO makes them vulnerable to severe civil unrest.India has much infrastructure problems to overcome,but once again,i wish them the best.
Taliban actively supported and harboured bin laden,i have no problems with their removal from power in afganistan.I would be pleased to see bin laden captured and put on trial.
Iraq is a different matter,leading usa into war, on what has turned out to be a fishing expedition, based on dubious information ,looking for weapons of mass destruction,well ,usa have reaped the whirlwind ,that is what comes from hubris.
Your remarks about usa and the 'zionist conspiracy'.Frankly ,i just feel at the moment, that i cannot dignify your remarks with a comment.
Suffice to say, the more i see of humanity,the more i love my dog.
Good evening ,Moiz Qidwai

Thank you once again my brother.

I have seen your honest post. I have not many comments to make on that.

If you recollect, The real reason to attack Afghanistan was to capture Osama Bin Laden dead or alive. Taliban were only an accessory to the crime. They were not involved in 9/11 to any extent. But the end result is that Osama if free as before and Taliban are removed from power. Is that you call Justice?

About Iraq, you have acknowledged the folly of USA policy, so I have nothing on that.

Why are you afraid to acknowledge power of Zionists lobby in USA? It is no secret. Did you not see what happened to Grandson of Gandhi, when he made an innocent looking observation on Israel and its policies? How he was removed? He could have made a hundred time stronger comment on any other nation or person or religion and nothing would have happened to him. What does it prove?

Mind you it is not the first case of its kind. Any officer, politician or social worker, is in immediate danger of loosing their jobs, should they even slightly criticize Jews or Israel.

If you have any doubt, why don’t you crosscheck, who are the real owners of Biggest Newspaper Chains, Biggest Magazine Chains, Biggest News Agencies, Biggest Film Companies, Biggest TV News channels etc in USA.

Is it only by chance that they are controlled by the same minority group?

Then what are the chances of any Presidential Candidates, if he or she opposes Jews, Israel or any of the Jewish lobbies?

If you are still afraid to express your views, then I can say Australia is also under Zionists control

[Moiz Qidwai]

dee wrote:

*I* did not say it, Western scholars have agreed that this is the case.
..
..That's possibly why nobody has taken the challenge, nobody can figure out what it really means.

There are three portions of your long posting:

Sources of Quran:

You have stayed away from controversy and said that Western Scholars say that. However when the same Western Scholars say that all these present Gospels were written much after Jesus and they were edited many times, you do not believe it!!! Why? Because according to you it is only their guess work and they do not have any proof!!

But you will swallow whole sole any statements they make against Quran and its sources. The Quranic Version of any Biblical Storey is much more concise, and materially different from the original storey. How come the “Imperfect Copy” became more powerful and useful than the originals?

You have no answer for the Quranic challenge to bring a book like it and just call it meaningless. In fact that is the greatest proof of its divine origin!!

Just take one example, as per you somebody forged the Gospel of Barnabas in fourteenth century, but it is very difficult to distinguish it from other gospels in content and material. Why can’t a new version of Quran be made in 21st century? One which is comparable to 6th Century version?

Position of St. Paul:

You know that while walking on this earth, Jesus never preached his messages to Non Jews and neither asked his disciples to convert any Non Jews.

All references to preaching Gospels to Non Jews are after his alleged Crucifixion and Resurrection. Why would Jesus ask to do something , which he himself did not do during his life time? So all these claims of preaching Gospel to whole world are contrary to actual teaching of Jesus.

That Paul concentrated on Non Jews is also a known fact and he himself acknowledges it. The disciples of Jesus initially did not oppose Paul, because they thought he was sincere in preaching the message of Jesus.

But how could a man who never met Jesus, not learned his Gospel, could preach it to others? That is why Paul’s arguments are never supported by any quotations from Jesus and therefore should not have any authority for those who call themselves “Christians” meaning that they are followers of Jesus’. His words and commands are supreme for them.

Gospel of Barnabas:

I know that Christians Scholars call it a forgery. The reasons given could be applied to any other Gospel as well!!! It is not a secret that every Gospel has been “Touched Up” and “Pruned” by human hands, whose identity we do not know!!!

So technically All the Gospels are indeed forgeries. A forgery means modifying a document without the consent or knowledge of its author. Therefore technically Gospels according to Matthew, Mark , Luke and John are “Third or fourth century forgeries” and Gospel of Barnabas is “Fourteenth Century Forgery”!!

That is why I did not ask you to concentrate on forgery issue. I only advised you to read it at night, before going to sleep and see if it helps you in understanding Jesus better.

[Moiz Qidwai]

dee wrote:

MUQ: "Then who were these informers?"
These are some people who influenced Mohammed.
* Imrul Qays - an ancient Arabian poet who died a few decades before Mohammed's birth
* Zayd b. Amr b. Naufal - an 'apostate' of his time who preached and propagated Hanifism
..
..

I cannot think how childish one can get when one is biased.!!! The problem for you is that in Islam every thing is recorded and preserved. It was most amusing to see the list you have provided. I will explain each of these persons, so you could realize, how flimsy are your arguments and to what depths of imbecility you will stoop to prove your points of view.

I you just copied these names from somewhere. It was your “Learned Scholars” who fed you with this nonsense. They were careful enough to say that “These people influenced the prophet”, this statement does not prove any thing.

Imrul Qays: As you said, he was an ancient Arab poet. His poetry was highly respected by Arabs and a few of his poems were hung on the Kaaba itself. However his topics were mostly love tales, wars, wine and women. When the smallest chapter of Quran was hung in Kaaba, then people removed the poems of Imrual Qais from there, seeing that there is no comparison between the two. In which way he “influenced” the prophet is known only to our Christian opponents.

Zaid bin Noufel: He was one who called himself “Haneef”(i.e. devoted to pure worship of Allah). But he died before prophet declared his mission. How did he “Contributed” to Quran is only known to Christians.

Labeed: He was an Arab poet. But he became Muslim when the prophet was in Medina. There is no record as to show he met the prophet in Makkah.

Hassan bin Thabit: He was also a poet and was living in Medina. He accepted Islam when the prophet fled to Medina. He became the First Poet of Islam, defending the prophet from the verbal attacks of his adversaries. He did not meet the prophet in Makkah. How did he “Influenced” the prophet is any body’s guess, seeing that he himself become the disciple of prophet.

Salman the Persian: He also met the prophet in Medina and became Muslim. I don’t know how, he could have “influenced” the prophet in Makkah!!!

Bahira, the Christian Monk: He met prophet when the prophet was 12 years old and was visiting Syria with his uncle on a trade mission. The meeting was very brief and I do not now, how he “influenced” the prophet 28 years after wards.

Jabr and Ibn Qumta: These were slaves as you have mentioned. Just because they met the prophet in Makakh does not prove that they “influenced” the prophet in composing Quran. The prophet might have met hundreds of Makkans during his forty years period before declaring his mission.

Khadija: She was the wife of prophet. Her assistance during the “Incident of Hira Cave” we have already mentioned. She of all people knew the prophet in much better way than any one else. She became the first Muslim. Her knowledge of scripture is uncertain, since she was a pagan. How could she provide the material fro Quran is anybody’s guess.

Waraqa: His role we have already discussed during the Cave incident. He was a cousin of Khadija and had become Christian many years ago. By the time prophet got his first revelation, Waraqa was very advanced in age and had become almost blind. He consoled the prophet and told him that the person whom he saw in cave was indeed Archangel Gabriel. Waraqa died shortly afterwards. How did he “influenced” the prophet after his death is anybody’s guess.(Contd).