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Dee
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Moiz Qidwai wrote: <quoted text>
I think sister you are allergic to Arabic language and terminology, that’s all. Let me tell you, all languages are from God and all are equally beautiful. There is no superiority of one language over other, except that Last Book from God came in Arabic language.
Now you are trying to become expert in Arabic language and inventing your own meanings. The word Islam means “Will full submission” It also means “Peace” The root Arabic Word is “SLM” from which Salam (meaning peace), Islam (Submission and inner peace, and Muslim (One who submits) are derived.
To simplify the matter, will you please answer these simple questions?
Did God sent prophets to all nations of the Earth or not?
Did these prophets come with same message or different messages?
What was the name of this religion which these prophets preached?
If you do not know the answers, then you should trust what we are telling.
By the way Mohamadenism was a complete fabrication, which you concocted for Muslims, It is very good that we came out of it. "Muslim (One who submits) are derived." Muslims use this word to claim that all the OT prophets were Muslims. When we say, "that's impossible, Mohammed was not yet born", you reply, "But the word Muslim means follower of Islam and Islam means submission to God, therefore the prophets were Muslims because they had submitted themselves to God". This is a dishonest play on words because the word 'Islam' is also the name of a religion as well as a word meaning 'submission'. Nobody 'invented' that fact. MUQ: "Did God sent prophets to all nations of the Earth or not?" Muslims claim to worship the same God as Jews and Christians and yet expect us to believe that God sent another messenger 700 years after Jesus to 'complete His teachings'. The 'evidence' is the usual play on words -'if a letter was changed in this word, it would fit in better with Islam' etc. etc. MUQ: "If you do not know the answers, then you should trust what we are telling." You can't be saying that we should trust Muslims because only Muslims know the truth? Mohammed told his followers to read the Bible if they had questions - except that Muslims now wish to change the story and say that parts of the Bible are corrupted. If this is so, why did Mohammed tell Muslims to read and believe the Bible? Are you saying that the Messenger of God didn't know that the Bible was 'corrupted'? MUQ: "By the way Mohamadenism was a complete fabrication, which you concocted for Muslims" Mohammedanism is a word, not a fabrication. Do you honestly think Muslims are so important that 'we' concocted a new word especially for them? The word means '[religious] system of Mohammed', it is no different from 'Anglicanism' or 'Catholicism' or any other 'ism'. MUQ: "Did these prophets come with same message or different messages?" 'Different', maybe; 'completely opposite', no. Mohammed's teachings are almost the opposite to those of Jesus - so no, I don't believe for a moment that God would send another messenger negating or 'superseding' the Ten Commandments or the teachings and promises of Jesus. Nor do I believe that God would create soulless sex slaves ("Thou shalt not commit adultery"). Nor do I believe that polygamy is the wish of God. Not the God I recognise, anyhow.
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Dee
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"In Surah 3:52 of the Qur'an, Jesus’ disciples tell Jesus: "do thou bear witness that we are Muslims".
An outright fabrication. Please point out where the Bible tells us that the disciples told Jesus they were Muslims. Or is this another word-play on 'Muslim: follower of Islam'?
In fact, the Quran gives a lot of wrong information about Jesus, eg - Jesus told His followers to love their enemies, the Quranic version of Jesus teaches that those who die fighting for Allah will go to paradise.
The Quranic 'Jesus' commands war against Christians and Jews until they surrender and pay tribute (Q.9:29).
The Bible tells us that Jesus will return to judge all humanity (Matt.16:27)- the Quran tells us that 'Isa' will return to destroy Christianity and all other religions and that he will implement the sharia of Mohammed.
I find it impossible to believe that this is the same God. In fact, nobody with the slightest power of logic and reason could claim that Allah is the Biblical God.
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Moiz Qidwai
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Dee wrote: <quoted text>
"Muslim (One who submits) are derived."
Muslims use this word to claim that all the OT prophets were Muslims. When we say, "that's impossible, Mohammed was not yet born", you reply, "But the word Muslim means follower of Islam and Islam means submission to God, therefore the prophets were Muslims because they had submitted themselves to God". This is a dishonest play on words because the word 'Islam' is also the name of a religion as well as a word meaning 'submission'. Nobody 'invented' that fact.
..Nor do I believe that polygamy is the wish of God. Not the God I recognise, anyhow. Do you mean to say that OT prophets refused to submit their will to the Will of their Creator?(Why would they object to being called Muslim in Arabic and matching words in other languages?). It is as I told you; you own bias against Arabic Language. Why did God send Jesus 1200 years after Moses to change or modify his message? What was the logic in that? By same logic God sent our prophet 600 years after Jesus to change and modify his message? If the first logic is true, so the second one is also true. Our Prophet never asked Muslims to read Bible if they want to know any thing. The messenger of God said that Jews and Christians have corrupted their books. They write books with their own hands and then say “It is From God”. If you want any proof; look at the books of apocrypha, who wrote them? Muslims? Or Jews and Christians? Then they claimed that these are God’s words. Many of the apocryphal books were included in the Bible and many were left out. Most celebrated and oldest manuscripts do contain one or the book of so called apocrypha. Why same God would send prophets with different religions to different parts of the world? The logic demands that the message should be same and if you find any differences then it be due to corruption of the followers and not because of prophets or God. Jesus will indeed come down to earth to establish the truth. His primary job will be to slay the Anti Christ. At the same time, the falsehood and cobwebs, which Christians have built around his personality, would be washed away and he will be seen as what he really was “A Word of God, Which was sent to the Virgin Mary, A spirit proceeding from God and a Righteous Prophet”(Remember the Abyssinian episode). It will be Good news for those who wish to see the real Jesus, However it will be Sad and Bad news for those who Worship Jesus and make him equal unto God..
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Moiz Qidwai
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Episode-9 “Three years of Social Boycott”
When Makkans saw that Abu Talib and BANI HASHIM will not abandon the prophet, and the numbers of Muslims in Makkah is ever on the rise, they arranged a meeting of all the chief’s of clans and held a discussion as to how to proceed further.
They decided to boycott the whole tribe of BANI HASHIM. They decided that no one will hold any relation with them, they will not marry with them, nor sell or buy anything from them and will boycott them from all social gatherings, till they handover the prophet to them. A declaration of this effect was written and hanged by the door of Kaabah, so that every one be aware of it.
The whole tribe of BANI HASHIM shifted to a small valley in Makkah and waited for wiser sense to prevail. The boycott lasted almost three years, which were very hard for the entire HASHIM Tribe.
Only one family of BANI HASHIM was exempted from this boycott and that was the house of ABU LAHAB, a real uncle of the prophet. ABU LAHAB like ABU JAHL was the fiercest enemy of prophet and his message. His attitude resulted in a special chapter in Quran, in which his doom was predicted by name. Out of all enemies of prophet in Makkah, he holds the distinction of being cursed by name in Quran.
Members of BANI HASHIM were isolated from day to day activities and they could come out only during the Hajj period, when no ban could be enforced. Men, women and children all suffered heavily.
However every one in Makkah was not happy with this boycott, it had never happened before. There were many persons of other tribes who had marriage relation with BANI HASHIM, but they could not do much, in the beginning of ban period. However as the time passed and no result was obtained, these people started getting restless and appealed to many other people, who were not that hard hearted.
Ultimately after three years, five or six of these people raised this issue jointly at a gathering at Kaabah and appealed to the good sense of Makkans. There was strong opposition from ABU JAHL and ABU LAHAB. At the same time our prophet informed Abu Talib, that termites have eaten away every part of that boycott agreement, except where the name Allah was mentioned.
Abu Talib ca\me to Makkans with this info, and when they opened the document, they found exactly as the prophet had told them. They had no face left but to agree for lifting of boycott.
Finally after three years BANI HASHIM came out of isolation. The prophet’s mission continued thru out this period.
Please put your comment on this episode.
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Bob
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Andrew wrote: <quoted text>
Has it occurred to you that most Australians don't care about your religious garbage? If you muslims had any understanding of how boring you are to us you'd blush and faint. No inderpent thinking would ever occur to a fantatic as you can see by the above posts
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Dee
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MUQ: "Why would they object to being called Muslim in Arabic and matching words in other languages?"
Very disingenuous. Nobody would object if it were not such an obvious play on words in an attempt to fool people who do not know that the word 'Muslim' has two meanings - 1. a follower of the teachings of Mohammed, and 2. one who submits to God (a direct translation). All Muslims, Arab and non-Arab alike, are obliged to pray in Arabic, even if they do not understand a single word. How many Muslims have read the Quran and understand it thoroughly? Very few.
MUQ; "What was the logic in that?"
Read the Bible. There is nothing 'illogical' in God's promise to send a Messiah. This prophesy is mentioned all through the Bible, beginning in Genesis. The timespan is God's to decide.
MUQ: "By same logic God sent our prophet 600 years after Jesus to change and modify his message? If the first logic is true, so the second one is also true."
You completely misunderstand. The Messiah promised by the Bible is not another prophet sent to change God's message.
"For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, Or the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness FROM THEN ON AND FOREVERMORE. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will accomplish this" (Isaiah 9:6-7).
"FROM THEN ON AND FOREVER MORE". Islam does not fit into the Biblical prophesy, as we keep saying. No matter how much you play on words or try to say 'this word should be that word', Muslim claims simply do not make sense to anyone familiar with the Bible or Christianity.
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Dee
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CONT: MUQ:“Our Prophet never asked Muslims to read Bible if they want to know any thing."
Then what do the following verses mean?
"He has revealed to thee the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Torah and the Gospel aforetime, a guidance for the people." -- Sura 3:3
"And We have revealed to thee the Book with the truth, verifying that which is before it of the Book and a guardian over it." -- Sura 5:48
As I see it, these Suras indicate that the Quran (and hence the teachings of Mohammed) were not meant to discredit the Bible but rather to endorse its reliability.
MUQ: "Why same God would send prophets with different religions to different parts of the world?"
Hundred of years before Jesus, the Buddha preached non-violence and told his followers that the taking of life is wrong, just as Jesus preached. Judaism gives us the Ten commandments, by which Christians also live. These three world religions preach a similar message. Islam is the only religion that preaches endless war against 'unbelievers' and tells its followers that it is permissible to kill in the name of religion.
MUQ: "It will be Good news for those who wish to see the real Jesus"
How is it possible for Muslims born hundreds of years after Jesus, to determine 'the real Jesus'? How is it possible for them to know Jesus better than His own disciples and those who lived in His time and heard Him speak? Muslims who have never read the Bible and know nothing about Christianity (except what they have been told by biased teachers) believe they can interpret its contents better than anyone else. Jesus Himself told us there would only be one more revelation of truth to come after Him; He meant His return to earth, He was not referring to Mohammed.
MUQ: "They write books with their own hands and then say “It is From God”."
Nobody has ever claimed that the Bible was written by God or 'from God'. It was written by Hebrews over thousands of years, recording the events of their time, religious and historical. Some were prophets who described their experiences with God. Quite different from a book whose author claims that God spoke to him via an angel and dictated a new religion that would supersede all others.
Muslims believe Mohammed's claims and reject the idea that Jesus was or is the Son of God. There is no reconciling Christian and Muslim beliefs.
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Moiz Qidwai
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To: Madam Dee
Episode-10 “ Makkan’ charges against the prophet”
Before our prophet had declared his mission, Makkans gave him titles of Al SADIQ (Meaning truthful) and Al AMEEN (Meaning trustworthy). They agreed gladly to his arbitration a few years before to solve the tricky question of fixing the Black Stone in Kaaba.
But their views changed “Dramatically” once the prophet declared his mission. Now he was the subject of their jokes and merriment. They called him names and things. Some are given below; I have left Quranic references to save space.
They called him 1) Liar 2) Poet 3) Sorcerer 4) A Man Possessed 5) Leading a possessed group 6) Source of enmity between families 7) Fabricator of God’s word 8) A man like them, eating, walking in markets, and having wives and children 8) Why does he not show Signs and Miracles 9) Why was he chosen above Chiefs of Makkah and TAIF 11) Why an angel does not walk with him to warn every one 12) Why God does not make a garden for him to eat there from 13) Why no treasure is sent down from sky for him
They called Quran 1) A Fabrication 2) Tales of Bygone days 3) A thing coached by tutors during day and night hours 4) A message which their forefathers did not know 5)Why it is sent down in bits and pieces, why not at once 6) We can also bring a thing like it, if we try. 7) Do not listen to this message and make noise, may be you will succeed in stopping its spread.
They demanded 1) Why they also do not see angels 2) Why God does not speak to them also 3) Why God does not punish them so far for rejecting the prophet 4) When the punishment will come 5) When the last day will come 6) Why a flowing river is not brought to Makkah to make it green.7) Why the book is not sent down from sky, so they can touch it.
They were not unanimous in any thing. Many of the charges were contradictory. A man cannot be both at the same time. And that trait is repeated to our present times. Read any critical biography of prophet, he will give contradictory answers to explain different episodes in the prophet’s life. Each author will reach a different conclusion.
However, there was one area, where the Makkans did not put any charge on our prophet. That was his personal character and his life style. They knew so much of him that they feared that any attack on that will be considered as white lies. It was only left to our modern day Orientalists to open that door and malign the prophet’s character as immoral.
Please put your comment on this episode.
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Bob
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Moiz Qidwai wrote: Please put your comment on this episode. Put yours to DEE. Dee:1 Moiz Qidwai:0 by default
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Moiz Qidwai
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Dee wrote: Very disingenuous. Nobody would object if it were not such an obvious play on words in an attempt to fool people who do not know that the word 'Muslim' has two meanings - 1. a follower of the teachings of Mohammed, and 2. one who submits to God (a direct translation). All Muslims, Arab and non-Arab alike, are obliged to pray in Arabic, even if they do not understand a single word. How many Muslims have read the Quran and understand it thoroughly? Very few.
..
.. Since Mohammad was also a prophet of God, so his followers are also Muslims as earlier prophets and their followers were also Muslims. It is like when you follow Jesus, you do not reject Moses, David or other past prophets. Since Quran is the only “Confirmed Word of God” existing with us, we use that in our prayers, for uniformity and universal brotherhood. All Muslims thru out the world pray in exactly the same way. If each one used their own language, they would be a divided lot. It is not that difficult to learn Quranic Arabic either, specially the portions which are normally read in prayers. This is your own theory that no prophet will come after Messiah. While Messiah himself told that a future counselor / Comforter will come after him (and that is precisely what we are discussing now). Quran does confirm Torah, INJIL and ZABUR as books of revelation. But these are not the present day Pentateuch, Book of Psalm and Four Gospels. These books are not what Quran confirms. Though these books may contain some portion of the original revelations. All good teachings present in Torah and INJIL are confirmed by Quran, whereas the corruptions (like Trinity, Divinity of Jesus and his bearing sins of worlds) are forthrightly rejected. So Quran now contains the Truth and Whole Truth of the Will of God Al Mighty. Quran is a revelation from God and His knowledge is superior to all human knowledge. It was not Mohammad who was making all these claims, but God, who was sending this information thru angel Gabriel to our prophet. We have no problem in accepting Jesus as Son of God, but it should be in the same sense in which it was used by his people, the Jews. Same way Adam was called Son of God, David was called Son of God, Ephraim was called Son of God and many others were called Son of God in Bible. What we reject is Jesus as Begotten Son of God, God in human form and as One in trinity with God. And we reject it, because Jesus himself never claimed that position. It was Paul and Church which have hanged those labels around his neck. We honor Jesus exactly as he was “A Word of God, which was sent to Virgin Mary, a Spirit proceeding from God and a Righteous Prophet”(Remember the Abyssinian Episode?) I think, that when Jesus comes on second coming (and you are still alive then) and says that he did not die on cross, you would like to crucify him (so that your books remain true)!!!
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Dee
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MUQ: "earlier prophets and their followers were also Muslims"
You know, and I know, that this is a play on words. The OT prophets were Hebrews, worshippers of Jehovah.
MUQ: "While Messiah himself told that a future counselor / Comforter"
The Bible makes it crystal clear that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit. Jesus would no doubt have mentioned it to His disciples if they had to wait 700 years for the Comforter – instead, He told them to wait in Jerusalem and the Comforter would come to them 'in a few days'. Muslims continue to make this ridiculous claim with no proof or evidence whatsoever.
MOQ: "It was Paul and Church which have hanged those labels around his neck."
Another specious Muslim claim. Please explain exactly how the Christian Gospels could have been changed or ‘corrupted’. There are approximately 5,740 (Welte, 2003) manuscripts of the whole or part of the Greek text of the New Testament (pre-dating Mohammed) still in existence. Worldwide, there are about 24,800 copies of these original manuscripts. There are also 80,000 quotations in the works of early Christian writers – these are so extensive that the New Testament could be reconstructed from them without the actual New Testament documents. Then there is the obvious fact that the Christian Gospels were so widely distributed both before and after Mohammed, that any attempt to change (or add/subtract) anything in the Christian Gospels would have resulted in immediate discovery and condemnation.
The New Testament was handed down from apostolic times and guarded by the early Christian churches. The Septuagint edition of the Old Testament was always in the hands of both Christians and Jews, both rivals in religion. Any attempts to change this by either side would have been noticed, wouldn’t you say?
MUQ: "All good teachings present in Torah and INJIL are confirmed by Quran"
Muslims do not get to decide what is and is not 'good'.
MUQ: "whereas the corruptions (like Trinity, Divinity of Jesus and his bearing sins of worlds) are forthrightly rejected"
As we forthrightly reject Mohammed and all his teachings and consider him a false prophet.
MUQ: "If each one used their own language, they would be a divided lot"
So they babble prayers five times a day in a language they do not understand? And this unites them?
MUQ:“It was not Mohammad who was making all these claims, but God, who was sending this information thru angel Gabriel to our prophet.”
Nearly 600 years before Mohammed, Christians were warned against Islam by both Jesus and the Apostle Paul. Jesus warned about the many false prophets who would follow Him (Matthew 16:11-12) and Paul wrote very specifically:
"But even if we (or an angel from heaven) should preach a Gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be condemned to hell!" (Galatians 1:8).
Jesus also predicted Muslim intolerance. He warned that the day was likewise coming when religious zealots will kill Christians and think they are offering a service to God (John 16:2-4).
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Bob
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Judged:
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dee:2 Moiz Qidwai:0
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Dee
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MUQ: "malign the prophet’s character as immoral."
It depends upon the definition of 'immoral'. Many of the prophets acted in an immoral fashion, eg King David. Only Jesus, who was the Messiah, lived a life without sin. According to Christian beliefs, a man who marries twelve times, once to a nine year old child, steals and engages in warfare on those who do accept his teachings would not be regarded as a moral man. The Jews of the time also professed disgust at a prophet whose chief concern seemed to be his harem.
MUQ: "They called Quran 1) A Fabrication .."
Quite a lot of the Quran appears to be a fabrication. Although Muslims often give the impression that the Quran was written almost as it was dictated to Mohammed, this is not the case. The oldest Qur'an dates from around 790 A.D.- 158 years after Mohammed’s death, whereas the New Testament was written by those who had known Jesus personally.
The 10th century Muslim scholar Al Bukhari writes that whenever Mohammed fell into a trance, his revelations were written on whatever was handy at the time, including the leg or thigh bones of dead animals, palm leaves, parchments, papers, skins, mats, stones, and bark. When there was nothing at hand, Mohammed's followers tried to memorise it as closely as possible.
Zuhri reports, "We have heard that many Qur'an passages were revealed but that those who had memorized them fell in the Yemama fighting. Those passages had not been written down, and following the deaths of those who knew them, were no longer known ....'
The wife of Mohammed said after his death:
"The verse of the stoning and of suckling an adult ten times were revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my bed. When the messenger of Allah expired and we were preoccupied with his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper."
"I think the broader implications of some of the revisionist scholarship is to say that the Koran is not an authentic book, that it was fabricated 150 years later," - Ebrahim Moosa, a Muslim cleric and Professor of Religious Studies at Duke University. He was forced to leave South Africa after his house was firebombed by Muslim fanatics.
So it seems that Muslims are not in the position to meddle in the beliefs of others or to dictate what is right or wrong. Surely they try to insert Mohammed into the Bible to bolster the authenticity of Islam, a belief with no other source but Mohammed’s word.
Mohammed only heard about Jesus over five centuries after His death, and seems to have gotten confused. The Quran even males the erroneous claim that Christians believe in three gods consisting of the Father, Mary his wife, and Jesus their offspring.
"They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three..." Surah 5:73-75,
The orthodox Christian understanding of the Trinity is: The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit being three distinct co-eternal persons, sharing one indivisible Divine essence.
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Evin
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Read world news here: www.butlerreport.com
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Dee
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Bob wrote: dee:2
Moiz Qidwai:0 A Biblical scholar once said that if you torture a text long enough, you can get it to confess to anything. I think this is what happens with Muslim claims on the Bible. Questions for MUQ: 1. Have you ever read and studied the Bible, including the New Testament? 2. Have you compared the Bible with the Quran? 3. Are the arguments you make here the result of your own thoughts or are they given to you by others? If this is so, have those people read and studied the Bible? 4. Why do you expect Christians to accept these vague claims? Many scholars have concluded that the Quran is a fabrication. Since you continually state that the Bible is 'corrupted' and that Jesus was only another prophet, and expect us to take these claims seriously, why don't you, in the same spirit, consider our claims about Islam and the Quran? You accuse us of ignorance about Islam, but Muslim ignorance about Christianity is deeper. Until you answer these questions, there is no point in continuing with long posts about the life of Mohammed - we call all read about this subject if we wish.
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Moiz Qidwai
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Dee wrote: MUQ: It depends upon the definition of 'immoral'. Many of the prophets acted in an immoral fashion, eg King David. Only Jesus, who was the Messiah, lived a life without sin. According to Christian beliefs, a man who marries twelve times, once to a nine year old child, steals and engages in warfare on those who do accept his teachings would not be regarded as a moral man. The Jews of the time also professed disgust at a prophet whose chief concern seemed to be his harem.
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..sharing one indivisible Divine essence. We were discussing the Makkan chapter of our prophet’s life. So you concentrate your remarks on that period. Quran calls these “Immoral” actions attributed to various prophets in OT as “Baseless fabrications”. We will come to that issue in our discussions, when we will discuss “Sources of Quran” Authenticity of Quran: The authenticity of Quran is unparalleled amongst the world scriptures. It was true that it was written down on whatever material was available, but you are forgetting that it was also committed to memory by prophet and other companions. The prophet and his companions used to recite long portions of Quran during five daily prayers. They used to recite long portions of it during late night prayers. The Quran was the major source of getting new converts. By the time prophet died, he had the entire Quran preserved both into written form as well as in the hearts of many of his companions. Within two years of his death, when the YAMAMA battle took place and many of the memorizers of Quran died in it, the First Caliph Abu Bakr, was prompted to preserve the Quran in written form. All the memorizers of Quran did not die in YAMAMA battle. So within two years of prophet’s death the Quran was written down in the form of a book. It was with Abu Bakr, then with Omar, the second caliph and then was in the custody of HAFSA, daughter of Omar and wife of the prophet. Then within 20 years of prophet’s death, the third Caliph, made six or eight copies from that original and sent one to each of the major province. Two of tese copies still survive till this day. One is in Tashkent Museum and another in Turkey Topkopy Museum. Anyone can verify existing Quran’ with those copies. Further Quran has an unbroken chain of those who memorize the Quran completely. At no point in Islamic history, there was a period when thousands upon thousands of memorizers of Quran did not exist in the world. And what is the beauty that you cannot find any other Quran in the world, which is different from those originals. I know many people feel envy towards this authenticity of Quran and point baseless charges against it. What is more remarkable that they still consider “Word of God” their own scriptures which were neither preserved in written form and neither in memory form during the life time of their prophets. Quran was preserved to the extreme limit, which is humanly possible. As for doubters, there is no limit of imaginations..
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Dee
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Questions for MUQ:
1. Have you ever read and studied the Bible, including the New Testament?
2. Have you compared the Bible with the Quran?
3. Are the arguments you make here the result of your own thoughts or are they given to you by others? If this is so, have those people read and studied the Bible?
4. Why do you expect Christians to accept these vague claims?
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Moiz Qidwai
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Dee wrote: Questions for MUQ:
1. Have you ever read and studied the Bible, including the New Testament?
2. Have you compared the Bible with the Quran?
3. Are the arguments you make here the result of your own thoughts or are they given to you by others? If this is so, have those people read and studied the Bible?
4. Why do you expect Christians to accept these vague claims? Yes Sister, I fully agree with you, that you can drive any message from any scripture if you look for what you want it to say. And we do not have to go far to see it. Same OT books are read by Jews and Christians, and they drive totally different conclusions from it. We are pre-programmed before we read the scriptures, we see and we find only those things which we were programmed into. To study any scripture with open mind is ne of the hardest thing in the world. Now coming to your questions: 1. Yes, I have read both OT and NT books. It was not right for me to comment on other’s religion, without reading their scriptures. I read both OT and NT books word by word. 2. In fact there is nothing to compare Bible with Quran as such. Quran is the Word of God and nothing else, Bible contains Word of God mixed with other things. The monotheistic teachings mentioned in Bible are refined and perfected in Quran. The concepts of Prophethood, life after death, the events of hereafter are mentioned in Quran in much more details than in Bible. The Basic Laws and Commandments of Moses are mostly confirmed in Quran. Most of the rituals are specific to the Jews. A major part of OT books is Jewish history, which is for the information of those who want to study it. Coming to NT, We have no major conflict with the first three gospels. The forth Gospel is written in allegorical language and should not be interpreted literally. The letters of Paul are filled with his own logic and have no confirmation from Jesus, so they have no real scriptural value. 3. I have read many books comparing Islam and Christianity. Majority of these were from Islamic scholars and some from Ex Christian priests, who became Muslims. That is the beauty of Islam, it will often attract learned men form other faiths, but the reverse is rarely seen. 4. I do nor expect or believe that all Jews and Christians will accept my arguments. My view is that most of them simply do not know about Islam and Quran and their knowledge is based on mostly hearsay. If any of such person get inspiration form my posts to start enquiring the truth about Islam, my job is done. We are commanded to propagate our faith in most logical and reasonable manner to all we encounter. 5. Yes I know many of your scholars say that Quran is a fabrication, in fact this charge is mentioned in Quran itself!!! But Quran has a logical answer to this charge, that if it was possible for one unlettered man to fabricate this book, why others can’t also do it!!! This challenge is repeated in Quran many times and for 1400 years no one has come forward to take it. 6. Quran talks in logical terms, and if you can counter logic with logic it is OK, but your arguments that since Bible was written earlier to Quran, it must be right is not logical. We have to determine what the source of the two books is?. If the source of Quran is from God, then it supersedes all human knowledge, however old or new it may be. In fact that was what I wanted to discuss in my new post.. 7. To continue this discussion or to terminate it is your choice. I have seen that you really have no interest in the topic. You will pick just one line from my post and make that as basis for your reply. 8. If you have predetermined that you will stick to your own believes and will not open your mind, then it is really wastage of time and effort for both of us.
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Joined: Wed May 14
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Hi Moiz Qidwai, its good to hear your point of veiw put so well. It is also good to hear from someone from your country. I do not agree with what you said, but thats OK with me if its OK with you. I do not belive in any god, and would never hold anyone elses personal belifes against them. Unless they want to cause harm to inocent people. I know a couple of muslim people, they love their familys and are good people, Thats good enough for me.
Peace.
Now brother, see what you can do about the price of oil will ya. Cheers, I owe you a shrimp on the barbie.
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Dee
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MUQ: "In fact there is nothing to compare Bible with Quran as such. Quran is the Word of God and nothing else, Bible contains Word of God mixed with other things."
The Bible is both a narrative covering thousands of years and a book of prophesy. The Quran is of its own time, the lifetime of Mohammed, and does not make prophesies. But both are holy books, it is impossible not to compare them.
MUQ: "The concepts of Prophethood, life after death, the events of hereafter are mentioned in Quran in much more details than in Bible."
But the information does not match, so one of the books must be wrong.
MUQ: "I have read many books comparing Islam and Christianity. Majority of these were from Islamic scholars and some from Ex Christian priests, who became Muslims."
So in fact, you have read only books that support and agree with Islam. That’s the same as if I had read only book by Christian clerics and converts to Christianity. You have read nothing giving the opposite view of Islam or Mohammed, you have read only the opinions of biased people, one side not both sides. Nobody can form a proper opinion unless he/she is familiar with both sides of the question.
MUQ: "The letters of Paul are filled with his own logic and have no confirmation from Jesus, so they have no real scriptural value."
You continue to make this claim without providing the slightest bit of proof. I have asked you several times to explain exactly how Paul was able to change the teachings of Jesus to suit himself, and why nobody at the time noticed these changes, but you prefer not to answer.
MUQ: "This challenge is repeated in Quran many times and for 1400 years no one has come forward to take it."
The fact that nobody has come forward doesn’t prove your case. The challenge is to compose a ‘book like the Quran’– exactly what does that mean?
MUQ: "You will pick just one line from my post and make that as basis for your reply."
You try to discuss the subject chronologically but that is not possible. Since the Bible is both narrative and prophetic, most Biblical verses are meant to be understood in connection with other verses, it is not possible to simply isolate one particular verse and try to attach a meaning to it without taking the whole into consideration.
MUQ: "If you have predetermined that you will stick to your own believes and will not open your mind ..."
Have you ever considered that the claims you make are too weak to be taken seriously? I have read all the evidence you provided with an open mind (because nobody is 100% wrong, every argument has some rational basis) and the corresponding parts of the Bible – I asked people with a better knowledge of Christianity when I didn’t know enough to make a decision. All the Muslim claims seem to be very weak and based on nothing more than wishful thinking.
Muslims say that Paul corrupted the scriptures but they cannot tell us where and when this happened, they cannot explain why Paul was allowed to do such a thing, and why.
Muslims wish to change the meaning of Christianity by claiming that Mohammed was the Comforter, with no better evidence than a play on words –‘if this word is changed to a similar word it will then mean ‘praised one’, which must refer to Mohammed’. That is a chain of wishful thinking, not proof.
Are you serious when you expect people to accept this as solid evidence? When Muslims present some viable evidence for their claims I will listen with an unbiased mind.
Apparently Muslim scholars have been reading the scriptures for 1400 years, and never found anything better than these few verses to use as evidence for their claims.
Instead of accusing others of being closed minded and biased, you should consider the quality of your claims. If your claims are universally rejected, perhaps that's because they do not make sense and are not supported by any solid evidence.
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Judge it!
