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K of the Milky Way
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Scott Simon wrote: <quoted text>
My fans contact me personally via e-mail whenever I make you look bad and post a convincing argument against the subsidy to Galtier and the light rail. My box has been full lately.
By the way, one of the Boston Markets in Eagan closed last week. Are there any BM in Downtown St. Paul? Anyway, I looked at the notice on the door while walking the doggie tonight and already, they are at work bringing in LeeAnn Chin's new concept restaurant to be called Red Cherry. Are there any of these in Downtown St. Paul? Sonny boy, don't lie. You aren't a registered member posting here, you are posting as a "guest". As such, no one here knows your email address, or has any way of contacting you because you aren't registered. Nice try. LIES FROM SCOTTY... NO BIG SURPRISE THERE! And dontcha know the original Lee Ann Chin that started it all and was such a big success was the one that opened in downtown St Paul in Union Depot? A few years ago Lee Ann Chin decided to focus on the fast food business and closed their full-service restaurants, including the one that started it all. So don't give me that BS about Lee Ann Chin. There is a Lee Ann Chin fast food joint in the Alliance Bank Center food court, which is bustling and busting at the seams - no vacancies in there. If you're a good boy, I'll take you here. I wonder what your fortune will be, dear one.
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Scott Simon
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K of the Milky Way wrote: <quoted text>
no one here knows your email address, or has any way of contacting you because you aren't registered. Nice try. LIES FROM PRINCESS K of the Milky Way... NO BIG SURPRISE THERE!
And dontcha know the original Lee Ann Chin that started it all and was such a big success was the one that opened in downtown St Paul in Union Depot?
There is a Lee Ann Chin fast food joint in the Alliance Bank Center food court, Still waiting for the formal apology for the Starbucks lies. When can we expect it? I have 460 people on my personal e-mail "friends" list and whenever I slap you around --which seems to becoming an everyday occurrence-- I let them know. Many read and are following this thread with great interest including St. Paul City Council members. My friends contact me to offer tips and words of encouragement. In fact one of them sent me the news that the Starbucks in downtown St. Paul was closing. You see, we're all in this together. We oppose subsidy in any form. You are forgetting many details of the original Lee Ann Chin in your answer. The first restaurant was in Edina, then Ridgedale and the third one was in the Union Depot. The one in the Union Depot was heavily subsidized by the city (as most things need to be in St. Paul). They needed an anchor for the failing UD. And it has been closed for well over 6+ years if my memory is correct. Like all restaurants of quality in Downtown St. Paul, they eventually realize there is no audience with enough cash to afford them. It is all balding state and local government drones in short sleeve white shirts with ties and pocket-protectors. Certainly, not the ideal target audience. And the new LeeAnn Chins concept is to be called Red Cherry. Is there one opening in Downtown St. Paul? How about the Boston Market? Is there one of those in Downtown St. Paul? And what about Jamba Juice? Where is that in Downtown St. Paul? Ah huh. I thought so. Tell me again about some dinky little Mom and Pop food window that I never heard of and won't still be there in 6 months. It is fasinating!(NOT)
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K of the Milky Way
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This apparently is the main thing you do all day. I find it highly suspicious that someone would email you directly to support you, but everytime they have been invited to do so around here, they won't. Plus, it is easier to respond on here than it is in an e-mail. You are clearly a lying little boy. I was wrong about Starbucks closing. I am sorry. Apparently it just can't face up from competition of the other coffee shops located in every other building in downtown St Paul. City Center's anchor is Jamba Juice. They sure have a large store - 2 blocks worth, with lovely drywall, an exterior that is the color of old meat, and ribbed for your pleasure. The St Paul equivalent of City Center - Town Square (which is just as ugly)- is bustling with 3 banks (TCF, Bremer, and USBANK), D-Brian's Deli, Foot Locker, Potbelly, the Hilton, Minute Clinic, Avis Rent-A-Car, Ho Fan, AT&T, State Farm Insurance, American Grille, and Kelly Services. Why can Town Square, an equivalent building to City Center in all respects, have so much more activity and tenants in the "wasteland" of downtown St Paul compared to the activity-filled downtown Minneapolis? Care to explain that one?
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Scott Simon
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Sure. I read in Sunday's PP how embarrassing the Town Square park area is near the Garden Inn. So others must not see it the same way that you do. Plus, did you know who is staying the the Garden Inn during the RNC? The Minnesota delegation! The RNC couldn't dare dump that dive on out-of-towners so they asked the Minnesota delegation to stay there and tough it out. I find that hilarious. Once again, the retail sold in City Centre (at Jamba Juice) would far surpass ANY restaurant located in St. Paul's desolate skyway system. And this really bugs you doesn't it? Town Square is the one and only, make that the last holdout, for any hope of retail in all of Downtown St. Paul. Meanwhile in Minneapolis, there are dozens of square blocks full of retailers. NOT even including Daytons(Macy's), two-story Target, Neiman Marcus, Saks 5th Avenue, IDS Crystal Court, Gavidae etc. etc. etc. St. Paul Town Square is one ugly last stand of retail ... Mpls.= dozens of city blocks. Minneapolis has the Nicollet Mall. What is the equivalent in Downtown St. Paul? Minneapolis, like Mall of America is a DESTINATION, worthy of light rail. St. Paul is not a destination; NEVER will be and as such is not worthy of light rail. Give it up. Go back to worrying about your dusty, boarded -up movie theater getting taxpayers dollars to re-open. How do you think the Highland, Granview and Plaza will view subsidy to a competitor?
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Scott Simon
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By the way. I accept your apology in Post #354 for the terrible things you said to me in Post #339. I wish you had done it on your own without having to be "called out" for it. But nevertheless, it is done now and hopefully, you can turn your attention and that of your "twin brother" back to the original topic ... the proposed re-opening of the Galtier movie theater at taxpayer expense and risk. For the record, I'm for the theater re-opening, but not with so much as a nickel of taxpayer money or grants. Private enterprize and private risk should be at the core of the re-opening. i will support this.
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K of the Milky Way
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Judged:
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The true measure of retail success is who shows up in weekends, as it will show how much of a destination it is. No one shows up in either downtown on the weekends. Both skyway systems are filled with mostly food outlets. No one comes to Minneapolis or St Paul to shop at Macy's - they head to the 'Dales. Minneapolis Target is a joke - it is small and overpriced compared to the Targets most people have in the 'Burbs. Minneapolis Macy's is a grand store, but really, does anyone visit it other than Christmas time? Macy's considers it an under-performing store, and is in the same league as the St Paul one. Neiman Marcus has to survive off of subsidy, as one could roll a bowling ball through there. Gavidae is just as beautiful and just as desolate as Galtier. City Center's drywall rot has been covered enough here already. Basically, no one actually comes to Minneapolis to go shopping - you just need to visit after 5 or on the weekends - the exact times the 'Dales are the busiest. The only people shopping in Mpls are the people who work down there, and that's out of pure convenience that they happened to be there. NO ONE is going to go out of their way to shop in Mpls. NO ONE. As evidenced by the dozen retailers that have left in the past 6 months. If there are "dozens" of city blocks in downtown Minneapolis "filled with retail" I will ask you to name them right here. Good luck - you'll need it.
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K of the Milky Way
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Scott Simon wrote: Sure. I read in Sunday's PP how embarrassing the Town Square park area is near the Garden Inn. So others must not see it the same way that you do. Plus, did you know who is staying the the Garden Inn during the RNC? The Minnesota delegation! The RNC couldn't dare dump that dive on out-of-towners so they asked the Minnesota delegation to stay there and tough it out. I find that hilarious.
Once again, the retail sold in City Centre (at Jamba Juice) would far surpass ANY restaurant located in St. Paul's desolate skyway system. And this really bugs you doesn't it? Town Square is the one and only, make that the last holdout, for any hope of retail in all of Downtown St. Paul. Meanwhile in Minneapolis, there are dozens of square blocks full of retailers. NOT even including Daytons(Macy's), two-story Target, Neiman Marcus, Saks 5th Avenue, IDS Crystal Court, Gavidae etc. etc. etc.
St. Paul Town Square is one ugly last stand of retail ... Mpls.= dozens of city blocks.
Minneapolis has the Nicollet Mall. What is the equivalent in Downtown St. Paul? Minneapolis, like Mall of America is a DESTINATION, worthy of light rail. St. Paul is not a destination; NEVER will be and as such is not worthy of light rail. Give it up. Go back to worrying about your dusty, boarded -up movie theater getting taxpayers dollars to re-open. How do you think the Highland, Granview and Plaza will view subsidy to a competitor? By the by - IDS is following Galtier Plaza... they are filling their first floor with a SCHOOL as well. Sak's 5th Avenue? Stop propagating that rumor. In case you haven't been there it's "Sak's Off Fifth" because Minnesotans are smart enough to know when they are being gypped and won't buy the overpriced garb. Already been repeated that Neiman Marcus is dead and Macy's is underperforming. It needn't be a destination to have light rail. It's already the most heavily-used, least subsidized route in the Twin Cities. People's destinations ultimately are HOME. You will get far more people commuting than to "see the sights" in Minneapolis. NO ONE in St Paul will visit Minneapolis to see the Jamba Juice in City Center. NO ONE. Is it that hard to understand? St Paul is more of a destination than the route you are proposing, but ultimately, the goal of the LRT is to transport the greatest number of people down a packed urban corridor - I-94 and University Ave would be, and historically has been, the one. Not Eagan. Maybe you were absent from Metro Transit 101, but a big reason the LRT was routed down that stretch before University stretch was because 55 did not expand and a provision was put in place that the extra land would be used for mass transit instead of more lanes on 55. For Metro Transit, this meant it would be cheaper than ripping up an entire roadway as will need to be done with University, and therefore a good test. Yes, the Megamall and the Metrodome are destinations - but once again, LRT lines should be connecting COMMUTERS, not landmarks. St Paul and Minneapolis have the most commuters between them, hence the LRT between Mpls and St Paul, not Mpls and Eagan. It has GUARANTEED HEAVY RIDERSHIP from DAY ONE.
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K of the Milky Way
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<quoted text>
Town Square Park needs to be tidied up
In less then 50 days, St. Paul will be host to people from all over the world. Do we really want to show off Town Square Park as it now sits — an eyesore for all to see?
Can't the Parks and Recreation Department replant and reopen the park, at least until it is fixed for good? I am sure the Minnesota delegation, staying at the Hilton Garden Inn, Town
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Square, would appreciate anything we can do.
Gary L. Murphy, Vadnais Heights They eyesore of Town Square Park, located atop town Square will be visible to hotel guests, but it is still prettier than the dozens and dozens of surface parking lots and gang violence one witnesses every night in downtown Minneapolis.
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Scott Simon
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Oh please we're all getting so very, very tired or you trying to put a spin on the facts and portray St. Paul as a hip, happenin' place. Enough already. It has nice neighborhoods, but Downtown is nowhere and there is little or nothing that anyone in Minneapolis wants to go there for except an occasional concert or hockey game. May I suggest you sit your fat butt down at one of the beautiful sidewalk cafes on Nicollet Mall and order yourself a little pink drink with an umbrella in it. Then watch the weekday -make that ALL DAY, activity.
And you clearly don't have the first clue about how retail works. The true message of successful retail is that they pay their rent and their taxes and don't need the city to prop them up or pay them off to keep them from closing or moving.
There is nothin' in Downtown St. Paul that anyone wants. When will you understand this? The light rail is a scam to get government workers to Minneapolis for lunch. Yes. It is that simple.
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Millett
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It's really a shame that St Paul isn't more active. It is built of a much stronger architectural fabric than Minneapolis. Galtier Plaza exemplifies this. Galtier Plaza may have seen stronger success in concept in Minneapolis, but not in its current design. Galtier Plaza is very much "married" to its site in Saint Paul - much care was taken to make sure that the building fit the historic architectural fabric, while yet standing out for itself. Downtown Minneapolis is a mash of architectural styles, each as boring as the next. There are a few exceptions, Crystal Court, Gavidae Common, Qwest, and Wells Fargo place. The others are all glass popsicles or the oft-mentioned and much-dreaded surface parking lots.
As far as Boisclaire, I am well aware of how he taps into ever single taxpayer dollar possible. I think when you stack up Galtier to Riverplace though, Galtier outshines Riverplace in architecture (it's more polished and refined), location (Galtier is connected to the skyways, ensuring traffic is always passing through it), and occupancy (all things considered, Galtier is nearly fully occupied (the exception being commercial), but from what I have both seen and heard, Riverplace has one restaurant and one convenience store. It pales compared to Galtier's small assortment of remaining shops in the skyway, LoTo, food court, and YMCA.
The problem comes down to subsidy. Subsidy is the problem not the solution. City planners have it mixed up and toss around subsidies as if they were candy at a parade. Instead of really helping the city, it drags it into a downward spiral. If one of the mixed used places put as much research and design consideration into their building as Galtier did, it would do fairly well in Minneapolis. Again, this would be difficult though, given that Minneapolis has a nasty history as far as knocking down their architecturally significant buildings, and replacing them with buildings no one really cares for or will remember.
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Scott Simon
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Millett, many good points. But I'm a little confused. Was Boisclair involved in the Riverplace and/or St. Anthony developments?
I know he was the developer of what is now called RIVERSIDE PLAZA in the Cedar-Riverside area. This is also known as Little Somali.
Remember the days when St. Anthony had one restaurant and tons of promise ... Pracna on Main. What a great place! Sweeney's Saloon in St. Paul and Sweeney's Champagne Bar had similar "Bling" back in the days.
I guess Redstone Grill in Eden Prairie and Minnetonka are the equivalent hotspots now.
Thanks for your informed comments. I agree with most of what you have to say. The surface parking is kept that way to entice a developer who has a big, full block idea and big, full block financing. For the most part this method has had a 50/50 success rate at best.
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Millett
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The problem with the "super block" projects is that they make a city feel generic. The Gateway District certainly had it's share of historic buildings, all of which were knocked down, and the surface parking lots have stood there for the past 40-50 years. And to have knocked down the Metropolitan Life Building because the Sheraton thought it was too old - that is absolutely disgraceful. The Sheraton was an ugly beetle of a building, and not surprisingly it, too was knocked down. Or even take public and civic spaces and line them up - St Paul Central Library vs Minneapolis Central Library. St Paul is the clear winner. 3 parks in downtown St Paul, and yet nothing to make Minneapolis feel a bit less impersonal. St Paul has the human touches, but not many humans. Minneapolis is fairly generic without many human touches and many humans. This doesn't make sense. Minneapolis should invest more on the streetscape so that more of the downtown can be like Nicollet. It's a pedestrian-hostile environment. I am not a fan of these superblock projects. The success rate isn't very good, and they take away from the architectural fabric of the city. You need the small guys next to the big guys. It gives a place a good vibe, a sense of urban vitality. The only area that has this going on is Nicollet, and the further from Nicollet you are, the rougher the streets get. But yes, Boisclair was the developer of Riverplace. If you ever walk through the two buildings and take notes, notice how similar in style and concept the two places are. They even have the same light fixtures, extravagent use of brass, glass elevators, luminous ceilings, etc. Galtier underwent a huge remodeling project in 2002, making it have more of a futuristic look, but the main elements still remain, and the sharp-eyed observer will notice how similar the two are. Galtier Plaza basically is a refinement and polishing on the work and concept Boisclair set forth with Riverplace. http://www.emporis.com/en/cd/cm/... will give a bit more information. Yes, I remember what a neat neighborhood St. Anthony Main was. Remember Mississippi Live at Riverplace? Or all the restaurants? Unfortunately, it, like Riverplace, seems to have dulled over the years, moreso than Galtier has. Still, Surdyk's is the best wine and cheese shop in the Twin Cities, bar none! Here's another article you may like to read about a couple of restaurants that were at Galtier: http://www.citypages.com/1996-11-06/restauran... The article was written in 1996, about a year after Zaidan Enterprises lost the building due to bankruptcy. Zaidan, for those of you who aren't familiar with them, turned Galtier Plaza around pretty much right away in the late 80s, taking a new approach to Galtier by filling it with all sorts of restaurants, night clubs, comedy, movies and the like. I remember the early 90s when the place was hopping! You are right Scott - Galtier easily had a couple thousand people in there back in the day. And I firmly believe it could again, given proper management, proper city planning, and no subsidies. A city enticing a business to a subsidy is a bad sign - it's like trying to bring a horse to water that he knows is bad. You can't force him to drink it. Subsidies CREATE a downward spiral, not FIX one. Dave Thune and the others in City Hall can't figure this out for the life of them. Dave Thune barely squeaked by in the last election by the skin of his teeth. He almost lost out to Bill Hosko, a true downtown business-owner and passionate visionary. Dave Thune's greatest achievement (which he always points to with great pride) is a playground on 4th Street. Swell. Someone should give him a cookie. He also seems pretty dang proud of driving a Snap Fitness away from opening in the 1st National Bank Building. Oh, he just does a great job around here.
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jessie
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downtown st paul was featured on tv today, though most viewers probably did not know it! i nearly spit out my drink when they showed a shot of "downtown Salem" on days of our lives only to see that it was downtown st paul with wells fargo tower, town square, robert st bridge, etc! pretty cool!
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K of the Milky Way
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K of the Milky Way wrote: If there are "dozens" of city blocks in downtown Minneapolis "filled with retail" I will ask you to name them right here. Good luck - you'll need it. Still waiting for you to answer this one.
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Scott Simon
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It is called Nicollet Mall ... and then Hennepin Avenue ... and then 1st Avenue... and then Marquette Avenue ... and then Washington Avenue ... Almost all ground floor and more than half of the 2nd level is retail. For your walking tour. Start at the library and walk to two blocks South of the Hyatt ( I think that is 15th?). Then cross to the other side of the street and walk back. Then go up into the Skyway system and repeat the exercise. Then go to Hennepin and start all over again. Do you need a map? http://www.downtownmpls.com/images/directions... Have fun. It may take several days to complete, whereas I could walk past all of St. Paul's retail in about an hour. But the good news is you'll lose some weight and be humbled by the experience.
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K of the Milky Way
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Anything outside of Nicollet is sparse to nothing - any of those other stretches hardly add up to the "dozens and dozens of retailers" you are talking about. I don't call your little list "dozens of square blocks full of retailers".
I will go there if you'll buy me the fancy little drink with the umbrella. Of course, the drink would be cheaper in St Paul, and a helluva lot classier had near Landmark Center, but free booze is free booze.
Deal? Deal.
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K of the Milky Way
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Correction - dozens of retailers, maybe. But there certainly aren't "dozens and dozens of square blocks full of retailers". That's not the case. The retail is concentrated near Nicollet for the most part. Looking at the map, downtown Mpls is about 10x10 blocks. Take a look at the light purple areas which signify parking. 40-45% of downtown Minneapolis has surface parking lots covering 75% or more of a block. That's a ridiculous amount of surface parking. There's not much to downtown Mpls 3-4 blocks east from Hennepin other than parking lots. I suppose that would be all this urban vitality you keep yammering about. Funny how Mpls sometimes calls itself the "Mini Apple" as if it can somehow even be CONSIDERED on par with the "Big Apple".
Joe Soucheray's digs at Mpls in the posted article were great. They have everything except what is the most important.
Nice.
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Scott Simon
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I know how chicks are with maps. Dozens and dozens is 24 but there are over 50 square blocks of retail in Minneapolis. Consider some blocks count as two because they have retail on first and second floor. Some even count as three for the same reason. Get out a magnifying glass and start your list. Start around the new Guthrie and go North on Washington; turn left on First Avenue and then left again at 10th street and go to Hennepin. You'll find 40 - 60 blocks of retail BEFORE YOU EVEN GET TO NICOLLET AND MARQUETTE.
We haven't even touched on the Warehouse District and Nicollet Island and beyond. You've got you're work cut out for you cupcake.
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K of the Milky Way
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A block of retail doesn't mean a convenience store in a downtown building or that little desk inside the Wells Fargo museum that sells Wells Fargo mugs. It also doesn't mean two blocks for a Jamba Juice store. The most successful and discussed retail outlets in Minneapolis are, sadly enough, Sex World and Lickety Split.
A block of retail means something that offers many, many different options for shopping and dining. The standard convenience store, Subway, and coffee shop that are located in nearly every building in downtown Minneapolis don't make the cut for me - people don't come downtown Minneapolis to see those things, which is what the majority of the downtown Mpls retail scene consists of anyhow. The only retail store where Mpls is better than the suburban stores is Macy's... but it's far too big for the market that is there, as witnessed by it's "underperforming" status designated by Macy's HQ. I can only imagine the outrage if Macy's tried to cut back at the store though. It doesn't matter if people don't truly shop there, Mpls civic boosters want to put up a pretense like there truly is demand for 6 stories of shopping, even though the only busy areas in that store make up the size of a regular mall store. Imagine if Macy's were to close that store because it simply is unable to perform...
But Scott, apparently I am just a dopey female who is bad with maps. No wonder you have a "death wish" against "my kind", so perhaps you wouldn't mind listing IN DETAIL every single block to illuminate my pea-sized brain. I do love to shop, but well, there's nothing down there for me to shop for. Mpls is just not a destination for retail, but you say there are 50+ blocks of chock-full retail.
This I have to see, because you and I both know that's not true. But I will hold you up to the test. I will only believe you once you list the building name(s), the streets they are bound by, and what's inside of them. Good luck!
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Scott Simon
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