BLACK HEBREW ISRAELITES/JEWS : Who is...

BLACK HEBREW ISRAELITES/JEWS : Who is Nehushtan ?

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#1 Jul 30, 2013
This is a serious question directed to any Black Hebrew Israelite, white Jew, christian, muslim, or anybody who follows the God of Abraham Isaac, & Jacob.

The bible clearly tell us not to make false graven images and idols. Yet in the bible, God commands Moses to make a serpent out of brass, and to place it upon a rod, so that when the Israelites look upn this graven image, they will be healed. Is this not an idol ? What is your take on the brass snake called Nehushtan ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nehushtan

Numbers Chapter 21

8 And the LORD said unto Moses:'Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole; and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he seeth it, shall live.

9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and set it upon the pole; and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he looked unto the serpent of brass, he lived.

2 Kings Chapter 18

4 He removed the high places, and broke the pillars, and cut down the Asherah; and he broke in pieces the brazen serpent that Moses had made; for unto those days the children of Israel did offer to it; and it was called Nehushtan.
5 He trusted in the LORD, the God of Israel; so that after him was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor among them that were before him.

John chapter 3:14-15

King James Version (KJV)


14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

We see clearly that Moses made the serpent as commanded by God, King Hezikiah destroyed the serpent, and then Jesus compared himself with the serpent.

What is the meaning of all this ?!?!?

Are there any wise religous men among us who can answer this question ?

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#2 Jul 30, 2013

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Since: Jul 13

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#3 Jul 30, 2013
Can somebody explain this, or do we have to ask the white Jewish forum on topix ?

“Repent and worship God”

Since: Jul 13

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#4 Jul 30, 2013
Mahogany Queen B wrote:
This is a serious question directed to any Black Hebrew Israelite, white Jew, christian, muslim, or anybody who follows the God of Abraham Isaac, & Jacob.

The bible clearly tell us not to make false graven images and idols. Yet in the bible, God commands Moses to make a serpent out of brass, and to place it upon a rod, so that when the Israelites look upn this graven image, they will be healed. Is this not an idol ? What is your take on the brass snake called Nehushtan ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nehushtan

Numbers Chapter 21

8 And the LORD said unto Moses:'Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole; and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he seeth it, shall live.

9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and set it upon the pole; and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he looked unto the serpent of brass, he lived.

2 Kings Chapter 18

4 He removed the high places, and broke the pillars, and cut down the Asherah; and he broke in pieces the brazen serpent that Moses had made; for unto those days the children of Israel did offer to it; and it was called Nehushtan.
5 He trusted in the LORD, the God of Israel; so that after him was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor among them that were before him.

John chapter 3:14-15

King James Version (KJV)


14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

We see clearly that Moses made the serpent as commanded by God, King Hezikiah destroyed the serpent, and then Jesus compared himself with the serpent.

What is the meaning of all this ?!?!?

Are there any wise religous men among us who can answer this question ?
I don't recall reading that they worshipped the serpent in Numbers 21.

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#5 Jul 30, 2013
Phoenix Ascended wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't recall reading that they worshipped the serpent in Numbers 21.
It is clear in Exodus that God commands not to make any graven image. If God then commands Moses to make a snake and place it on a rod, that is a graven image. Now here comes the play on words, what is the difference between worship and placing one's faith in an object ? To claim that nobody worshiped the snake, one would have to claim to have the ability of a mind reader. One can't search out the heart & mind of any said individual. That being said, if an image is fashioned in the form of a snake "which was done in Egypt previously", and now the people are being told to seek healing by looking on this object, it is only natural for the people to see the object as the vessel of their healing. Any psychologist would stipulate that. We can find proof via King Hezikiah, that the people were worshiping it, thus he felt his need to destroy Nehushtan, which would prove my theory correct, that the people were in fact worshiping it. However "worship" is just a play on words as far as I'm concerned.

Exodus 20:4 King James Version (KJV) 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. That sounds pretty straight forward to me.

So why was Nehushtan made by Moses ?

Is this a contradiction ?

Was Moses invoking the arts of Egypt, which is discussed in the other lost books of Moses ?

Did Moses make this Idol, and claim that God commanded it, just as the prophet Muhammad commanded the people that their 3 local false idols could make intercession for the people to Allah aka the satanic verses ?

Or was this story interjected into the bible ?

We can't ignore this. What is your interpretation as to why we are given this story, even when we know that the old testament Israelite God is a jealous God.

“Repent and worship God”

Since: Jul 13

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#6 Jul 30, 2013
Mahogany Queen B wrote:
<quoted text>It is clear in Exodus that God commands not to make any graven image. If God then commands Moses to make a snake and place it on a rod, that is a graven image. Now here comes the play on words, what is the difference between worship and placing one's faith in an object ? To claim that nobody worshiped the snake, one would have to claim to have the ability of a mind reader. One can't search out the heart & mind of any said individual. That being said, if an image is fashioned in the form of a snake "which was done in Egypt previously", and now the people are being told to seek healing by looking on this object, it is only natural for the people to see the object as the vessel of their healing. Any psychologist would stipulate that. We can find proof via King Hezikiah, that the people were worshiping it, thus he felt his need to destroy Nehushtan, which would prove my theory correct, that the people were in fact worshiping it. However "worship" is just a play on words as far as I'm concerned.

Exodus 20:4 King James Version (KJV) 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. That sounds pretty straight forward to me.

So why was Nehushtan made by Moses ?

Is this a contradiction ?

Was Moses invoking the arts of Egypt, which is discussed in the other lost books of Moses ?

Did Moses make this Idol, and claim that God commanded it, just as the prophet Muhammad commanded the people that their 3 local false idols could make intercession for the people to Allah aka the satanic verses ?

Or was this story interjected into the bible ?

We can't ignore this. What is your interpretation as to why we are given this story, even when we know that the old testament Israelite God is a jealous God.
I will stand by previous statement that they did not worship the serpent.

The simple answer is yes. God did prohibit the making of images. So is He breaking His own command by instructing Moses to cast one? No. You see, the important question to answer is,“Why did God prohibit the making of images?” The fact is that this was a command in a context. The context was in reference to the Israelites being faithful to the one true God… set apart to Him alone. They were therefore, not to dabble with other forms of worship, or the other gods of those forms of worship. As I’ve said elsewhere, images for worship in the ancient world were not merely figurines meant to fill space or create ambiance… they were thought to be a revelation of the deity itself.1 Further, these images always carried the idea of mediation. This is why the worshippers would often bring their offerings and sacrifices before the image.2

Understanding these elements of “image” thinking in the Bible quickly reveals how Moses could be told to cast a serpent for the people to look at, and yet not be thereby breaking a commandment of God. Those people were not worshipping the serpent. They were not thinking of it as a mediator between them and God. They did not think of that bronze snake as a type of physical representation of God’s presence. And because none of those things were true… the bronze serpent really has very little to do with the 2nd commandment.

http://www.walkinggospel.com/...

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#7 Jul 30, 2013
Phoenix Ascended wrote:
<quoted text>
I will stand by previous statement that they did not worship the serpent.
The simple answer is yes. God did prohibit the making of images. So is He breaking His own command by instructing Moses to cast one? No. You see, the important question to answer is,“Why did God prohibit the making of images?” The fact is that this was a command in a context. The context was in reference to the Israelites being faithful to the one true God… set apart to Him alone. They were therefore, not to dabble with other forms of worship, or the other gods of those forms of worship. As I’ve said elsewhere, images for worship in the ancient world were not merely figurines meant to fill space or create ambiance… they were thought to be a revelation of the deity itself.1 Further, these images always carried the idea of mediation. This is why the worshippers would often bring their offerings and sacrifices before the image.2
Understanding these elements of “image” thinking in the Bible quickly reveals how Moses could be told to cast a serpent for the people to look at, and yet not be thereby breaking a commandment of God. Those people were not worshipping the serpent. They were not thinking of it as a mediator between them and God. They did not think of that bronze snake as a type of physical representation of God’s presence. And because none of those things were true… the bronze serpent really has very little to do with the 2nd commandment.
http://www.walkinggospel.com/...
Can you tell me in your own words as to why you still stand by your original statement ? No offense sister, but I was hoping to reason with posters, not copy and paste, but I do appreciate the posting none the less.

We well know that the Egyptians held snakes as sacred, so much so, that the snake was even found on their crowns. Moses a prince in Egypt, which the bible states was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians. Yet do you not find it odd that the snake is brought back to prominence among Israelites who "according to them" were there as slaves ?

Acts 7:22

King James Version (KJV)

22 And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds.

That is why many who practice VOODOO see Moses as a major conjure man.

“Repent and worship God”

Since: Jul 13

Location hidden

#8 Jul 30, 2013
Mahogany Queen B wrote:
<quoted text>Can you tell me in your own words as to why you still stand by your original statement ? No offense sister, but I was hoping to reason with posters, not copy and paste, but I do appreciate the posting none the less.

We well know that the Egyptians held snakes as sacred, so much so, that the snake was even found on their crowns. Moses a prince in Egypt, which the bible states was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians. Yet do you not find it odd that the snake is brought back to prominence among Israelites who "according to them" were there as slaves ?

Acts 7:22

King James Version (KJV)

22 And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds.

That is why many who practice VOODOO see Moses as a major conjure man.
They did not worship the serpent hence why it was not against the commandments.

“Repent and worship God”

Since: Jul 13

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#9 Jul 30, 2013
The very simple answer to this "contradiction" is merely to point out that the critic apparently has not bothered to read Exodus 20:4 in context.

Quite clearly, the very next verse (v.5) provides the stipulated purpose for the prohibition on graven images - which is that they are NOT to be bowed down to and worshipped.

This commandment prohibits idols and other artefacts to which man might be tempted to ascribe the glory and place of God.

This commandment does not prohibit the making of all statuary or other artistic representations of men, animals, etc.

It merely forbids the use of visual images for worship or as aids in worship - to help one "imagine" God or through which the attention of worship might be directed.

Worshippers of God are to know that His children walk by faith, and not by sight.

It is demeaning to the worship of God to create an image and then use it as a visual representation of God or as a way of "reaching" God.

Thus, all idols are forbidden, as would things like crucifices, statues of Mary or the saints, and even artistic pictures of Jesus (if the picture is being used as an aid in worship).

Any graven image which is made to be bowed down to or is used to help one envision or pray to God is covered in this commandment.

However, "graven images" in the more general sense of artistic adornment and whatnot are quite clearly not covered in the stipulating addendum of verse 5.

http://www.studytoanswer.net/consref/gravenim...

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#10 Jul 30, 2013
Quote (Phoenix Ascended)

Worshippers of God are to know that His children walk by faith, and not by sight.

It is demeaning to the worship of God to create an image and then use it as a visual representation of God or as a way of "reaching" God.

Thus, all idols are forbidden, as would things like crucifices, statues of Mary or the saints, and even artistic pictures of Jesus (if the picture is being used as an aid in worship).

(Response)

If we are to examine the highlighted passages that you posted, here we see that it does not take much of a psychologist to determine that said object was worshiped or in the very lease was an aid to get to God. If indeed we are to walk by faith and not by sight, then why have the image of a snake to LOOK upon and then receive healing ? I see it as a far reach to try and prove that the snake was not worshiped, simply because we can't find the word "Worship" in the text. I can post several scriptures where idols are mentioned in the bible, and the word worship not even be in the same chapter. Clearly we must conclude that even King Hezikiah knew they were worshiping the snake. So how long exactly have they been worshiping the snake ? Any person who use common sense would know that eventually the people would worship an object made by Moses that ACTUALLY healed them. Hezikiah saw this as a threat to Yahweh, Also the snake was not the only idol that Hezikiah rid Israel of that day.

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#11 Jul 30, 2013
The Egyptian Goddesses Wadjet:

Wadjet was claimed as the patron goddess and protector of the whole of Lower Egypt and became associated with Nekhbet, depicted as a white vulture, who held unified Egypt. After the unification the image of Nekhbet joined Wadjet on the crown, thereafter shown as part of the uraeus.
The ancient Egyptian word Wedjat signifies blue and green. It is also the name for the well known Eye of the Moon.[10] Indeed, in later times, she was often depicted simply as a woman with a snake's head, or as a woman wearing the uraeus. The uraeus originally had been her body alone, which wrapped around or was coiled upon the head of the pharaoh or another deity

Wadjet was depicted as a cobra. As patron and protector, later Wadjet often was shown coiled upon the head of Ra; in order to act as his protection, this image of her became the uraeus symbol used on the royal crowns as well.

Another early depiction of Wadjet is as a cobra entwined around a papyrus stem, beginning in the Predynastic era (prior to 3100 B.C.) and it is thought to be the first image that shows a snake entwined around a staff symbol. This is a sacred image that appeared repeatedly in the later images and myths of cultures surrounding the Mediterranean Sea, called the caduceus, which may have had separate origins.

Her image also rears up from the staff of the "flag" poles that are used to indicate deities, as seen in the hieroglyph for uraeus above and for goddess in other places.

http://herhet.tripod.com/wadjet.gif

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#12 Jul 30, 2013

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