Court to decide if race preference ba...

Court to decide if race preference bans hurt diversity

There are 93 comments on the Reno Gazette-Journal story from Oct 13, 2013, titled Court to decide if race preference bans hurt diversity. In it, Reno Gazette-Journal reports that:

To hear Michigan Attorney General Bill Schuette explain it, what could be wrong with a state constitutional amendment that "shall not discriminate against, or grant preferential treatment to, any individual or group on the basis of race, sex, color, ethnicity, or national origin?" Just about everything, says Mark Rosenbaum of the American Civil ... (more)

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“Headed toward the cliff”

Level 1

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#24 Oct 14, 2013
Sneaky Pete wrote:
<quoted text>This coming from a democrat? A member of the biggest racist party out there? Boy, you people have really gotten delusional.
I'm not a Democrat. I'm a conservative libertarian who currently is forced to vote for the Dems because the GOPasaurs have been taken over by the religious Teabagger nutjobs.
Robert

Douglasville, GA

#25 Oct 15, 2013
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
A "quota without specific numbers"?
The very definition of a quota is a specific number or percentage or amount.
You can't have a "quota without specific numbers".
Again, you're assuming a standardized test score is the only qualification; it seldom is. If you didn't get the job, then you obviously didn't earn it.
So people should be hired by drawing a name out of a hat? EVERY single job out their involves an employer discriminating in favor of one person over all others.
You feel that discrimination is unjust because you WANT to feel that way based on your existing biases.
No I feel that affirmative action is discrimination and so do the people of Michigan that is why they are having the court fight which is the subject of this news article.

Quota without specific numbers, sounds ridiculous does't it, well that is affirmative action. They have "soft targets" but the end result is the same you have a group of people who were left out because of the color of their skin in order to meet target goals.

Of course in my case there was nothing soft about the target, it was a strait quota and was considered legal because of past discrimination. The time line went like this, there was a lawsuit by the justice department then 5 years later a consent decree was signed then almost 5 years after that they were charged with reverse discrimination for passing over whites to make up for discrimination by people who were not longer there. Far as I know it is still going back and forth.

It was a public sector job and many of them are filled by competitive testing. What should have happened is they simple take race off of the application and if your score high enough to make the list then you get the chance to be hired but that left too many blacks out. So rather than deal with the problem which is education they expect a leg up of the white people who are beating them fair and square on the tests.

I laugh that you try to call yourself a libertarian yet support affirmative action.

“Come and get it! ”

Level 3

Since: Jan 09

Traverse City

#26 Oct 15, 2013
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm not a Democrat. I'm a conservative libertarian who currently is forced to vote for the Dems because the GOPasaurs have been taken over by the religious Teabagger nutjobs.
Yea, they sure are "nutjobs" for trying to preserve the things this country was built on like Christianity and the Constitution. What a bunch of kooks!

“Headed toward the cliff”

Level 1

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#27 Oct 15, 2013
Robert wrote:
<quoted text>
No I feel that affirmative action is discrimination and so do the people of Michigan that is why they are having the court fight which is the subject of this news article.
Quota without specific numbers, sounds ridiculous does't it, well that is affirmative action. They have "soft targets" but the end result is the same you have a group of people who were left out because of the color of their skin in order to meet target goals.
Of course in my case there was nothing soft about the target, it was a strait quota and was considered legal because of past discrimination. The time line went like this, there was a lawsuit by the justice department then 5 years later a consent decree was signed then almost 5 years after that they were charged with reverse discrimination for passing over whites to make up for discrimination by people who were not longer there. Far as I know it is still going back and forth.
It was a public sector job and many of them are filled by competitive testing. What should have happened is they simple take race off of the application and if your score high enough to make the list then you get the chance to be hired but that left too many blacks out. So rather than deal with the problem which is education they expect a leg up of the white people who are beating them fair and square on the tests.
I laugh that you try to call yourself a libertarian yet support affirmative action.
Actually many in Michigan support affirmative action.

Prop 2 passed with only 2 million votes in favor, out of a voting population of 7.5 million.

That's hardly a majority.

Prop 2 was put on the ballot in 2006 for a reason. It was a midterm election and the proponents knew midterm elections have about half the number of voters as in a presidential year and that those voters tend to skew more conservative.

I agree that the problem is the educational inequities at the K-12 level. Unfortunately the white majority continues to refuse to deal with that inequity, thus making affirmative action necessary.

If blacks get on average a poorer education in high school is it surprising they on average perform worse on standardized testing? But the white majority likes it that way because they know it gives their kids an unfair advantage over minorities.

That's why they're trying to get rid of affirmative action and STILL refuse to deal with the education issues.

Unfortunately they're likely to win this one.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Level 1

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#28 Oct 15, 2013
Sneaky Pete wrote:
<quoted text>Yea, they sure are "nutjobs" for trying to preserve the things this country was built on like Christianity and the Constitution. What a bunch of kooks!
We're not a theocracy, and trying to turn us into one like the Teabaggers want to do goes against the constitution.

“Come and get it! ”

Level 3

Since: Jan 09

Traverse City

#29 Oct 15, 2013
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
We're not a theocracy, and trying to turn us into one like the Teabaggers want to do goes against the constitution.
And your evidence of this is...where?
Robert

Douglasville, GA

#30 Oct 15, 2013
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually many in Michigan support affirmative action.
Prop 2 passed with only 2 million votes in favor, out of a voting population of 7.5 million.
That's hardly a majority.
Prop 2 was put on the ballot in 2006 for a reason. It was a midterm election and the proponents knew midterm elections have about half the number of voters as in a presidential year and that those voters tend to skew more conservative.
I agree that the problem is the educational inequities at the K-12 level. Unfortunately the white majority continues to refuse to deal with that inequity, thus making affirmative action necessary.
If blacks get on average a poorer education in high school is it surprising they on average perform worse on standardized testing? But the white majority likes it that way because they know it gives their kids an unfair advantage over minorities.
That's why they're trying to get rid of affirmative action and STILL refuse to deal with the education issues.
Unfortunately they're likely to win this one.
When you address the reason they are getting outscored instead of of coming up with programs where by you can hire someone who was found wanting you are actually working on the problem instead of discriminating against someone else working on a symptom. It is not complicated, the two biggest factors which determine how much someone gets out of an education is how hard they work and how hard their parents work to see them succeed. I had nothing special, the same public education as the people I were outscoring. You actually hurt the people you are allegedly helping when you give someone something they did not earn. They eventually fixed the problem though, they made the test easier so everyone could score high.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Level 1

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#31 Oct 15, 2013
Sneaky Pete wrote:
<quoted text>And your evidence of this is...where?
Fox News.

Just listen to the religious Teabagger freaks wanting to force everyone to live according to their religious beliefs.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Level 1

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#32 Oct 15, 2013
Robert wrote:
<quoted text>
When you address the reason they are getting outscored instead of of coming up with programs where by you can hire someone who was found wanting you are actually working on the problem instead of discriminating against someone else working on a symptom. It is not complicated, the two biggest factors which determine how much someone gets out of an education is how hard they work and how hard their parents work to see them succeed. I had nothing special, the same public education as the people I were outscoring. You actually hurt the people you are allegedly helping when you give someone something they did not earn. They eventually fixed the problem though, they made the test easier so everyone could score high.
Like I said, people refuse to address the education issue, which is why poor minority students continue to fail at a higher rate than whites. As long as our public schools are funded primarily with property taxes the inequity will continue.

“Come and get it! ”

Level 3

Since: Jan 09

Traverse City

#33 Oct 15, 2013
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
Fox News.
Just listen to the religious Teabagger freaks wanting to force everyone to live according to their religious beliefs.
Spouting ignorant liberal opinions isn't evidence.
Robert

Douglasville, GA

#34 Oct 16, 2013
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
Like I said, people refuse to address the education issue, which is why poor minority students continue to fail at a higher rate than whites. As long as our public schools are funded primarily with property taxes the inequity will continue.
That is the problem, waiting for someone to do something about the education problem as if there were something for someone else to do.

Oh sure you can change the way you spend the money but you won't get anywhere doing that. It has already been tried, all you have to do is look towards successful communities with significant populations of blacks. The parents pay high taxes because of their incomes and the schools are reputed to be tops in performance. You would think that black students in this environment would perform just as well as their white peers. But that is not the case, you find the same lopsided picture with blacks under-performing. It is not the school, it is not the tax base it is the parents and the culture. So when you apply your solution to the school and to educational opportunities it is like having a car with a faulty fuel system and you are working on the breaks. This is why I hate affirmative action so much. You give someone a break they did not earn on merit and to do so you take away from someone else who did earn the spot on merit then on top of all that you don't solve the problem. At least if you had solved the problem the people who were denied opportunity so that others may have it wold have the consolation prize of knowing their loss helped improve our society but not so.

If you are a successful black parent you can't take the attitude that you have fulfilled your educational obligation simply by living in a nice middle class neighborhood and paying hefty school taxes, it is not up to the school to make sure that your children learn are learning what they are teaching. If you just leave it up to your children to study and do well in school with the opportunity you provided them, you are in for quite the disappointment. Black parents and the black community need to take more responsibility for the education both morally and scholarly for their children.

When a black kid in a nice middle class neighborhood chooses a ghetto rapper as their role model instead of his professional parents you are looking at why he needs affirmative action to get into a school.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Level 1

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#35 Oct 16, 2013
Robert wrote:
<quoted text>
That is the problem, waiting for someone to do something about the education problem as if there were something for someone else to do.
Oh sure you can change the way you spend the money but you won't get anywhere doing that. It has already been tried, all you have to do is look towards successful communities with significant populations of blacks. The parents pay high taxes because of their incomes and the schools are reputed to be tops in performance. You would think that black students in this environment would perform just as well as their white peers. But that is not the case, you find the same lopsided picture with blacks under-performing. It is not the school, it is not the tax base it is the parents and the culture. So when you apply your solution to the school and to educational opportunities it is like having a car with a faulty fuel system and you are working on the breaks. This is why I hate affirmative action so much. You give someone a break they did not earn on merit and to do so you take away from someone else who did earn the spot on merit then on top of all that you don't solve the problem. At least if you had solved the problem the people who were denied opportunity so that others may have it wold have the consolation prize of knowing their loss helped improve our society but not so.
If you are a successful black parent you can't take the attitude that you have fulfilled your educational obligation simply by living in a nice middle class neighborhood and paying hefty school taxes, it is not up to the school to make sure that your children learn are learning what they are teaching. If you just leave it up to your children to study and do well in school with the opportunity you provided them, you are in for quite the disappointment. Black parents and the black community need to take more responsibility for the education both morally and scholarly for their children.
When a black kid in a nice middle class neighborhood chooses a ghetto rapper as their role model instead of his professional parents you are looking at why he needs affirmative action to get into a school.
Do you have any stats to back up your claims?

Every study I've seen (including the ones by the University of Michigan & University of Wisconsin0 find living in a poor neighborhood with poorly financed schools is THE biggest indicator of high school graduation rates- regardless of race.

Black children growing up in poor neighborhoods have a 76% graduation rate.

Black children growing up in affluent neighborhoods have a 96% graduation rate.

Since blacks are much more likely to live in poverty than whites, it's not surprising then that the graduation rate for blacks is much worse that whites.
Robert

Douglasville, GA

#36 Oct 16, 2013
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you have any stats to back up your claims?
Every study I've seen (including the ones by the University of Michigan & University of Wisconsin0 find living in a poor neighborhood with poorly financed schools is THE biggest indicator of high school graduation rates- regardless of race.
Black children growing up in poor neighborhoods have a 76% graduation rate.
Black children growing up in affluent neighborhoods have a 96% graduation rate.
Since blacks are much more likely to live in poverty than whites, it's not surprising then that the graduation rate for blacks is much worse that whites.
"Black American Students in an Affluent Suburb: A Study of Academic Disengagement", is by John U. Ogbu, an anthropology professor at the University of California at Berkeley and a well-known figure in the field of student achievement for more than three decades.

It was Mr. Ogbu's research that popularized the phrase "acting white" in the mid-1980's to help explain why black students might disdain behaviors associated with high achievement, like speaking standard grammatical English.

Just go stick your head back in the sand if you want I don't care.

APV

“You were saying about bp aging”

Level 3

Since: Apr 08

still busy trolling??

#37 Oct 16, 2013
Robert wrote:
When will people realize that the way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.
Affirmative action in college admissions is a solution to a problem that does not exist. If the problem was that we are not going to let those black people go to school with our white children then they would have something to stand on, but those days are long gone. You are not kept out of college because you are black and it has been that way for decades. What does keep you out is entrance exam scores.
A white kid gets kept out of the college of his choice because his scores were not high enough. He goes to a lesser school, proves himself for a year, reapplies and enters the school of his choice on own merit. Somewhere out there at the same time a black student who also did not get in because the scores were not high enough. But instead of improving himself the standards are simply exempted.
Aside from fairness the black student who is given a pass to get in without the grades has a less chance of success than if he had to do the same thing I had to do which is to better myself.
If you want to truly help the black student who can't get into a college without an affirmative action program, figure out why he or she could not make the cut and offer a program which helps them be successful, do this instead of giving them someone elses deserved shot at the school.
Yet a white child sued a private university because they didn't have an admission policy that benefitted him. They ended up paying him 7M to drop his suit. He wasn't looking for equity, he was looking for money, otherwise he wouldn't have settled and made the school change it's admission policy.

http://www.hawaiiankingdom.info/C1295638618/E...

Funny how whites talks out of both sides of their mouths when it's convenient for them.

“No Substitute For The Truth”

Level 8

Since: Jan 10

Orlando, FL

#38 Oct 16, 2013
Affirmation Action would NOT be needed if all ethnic groups had their own businesses & successful communities/Nations. This would solve much of the racial issues but this is NEVER an option. Instead all minorities are kept depended on racists Governments which only seem too benefit those who are fair or Caucasian the most.

This is racists & that is why Affirmative Action is needed until Minorities are able to provide for each other. The fact so many non-Whites are abandoning their own societies should make us question the intentions of Governments. This is a real issue that has been largely ignored. WP are very ignorant too actually believe they experience injustice & racism. This sorta attitude is the reason why some dumb non-Whites will willingly give up all the rights they fought for too protect themselves because The Government does NOT protect non-Whites & it's really silly to believe they will.
Robert

Douglasville, GA

#39 Oct 16, 2013
APV wrote:
<quoted text>
Yet a white child sued a private university because they didn't have an admission policy that benefitted him. They ended up paying him 7M to drop his suit. He wasn't looking for equity, he was looking for money, otherwise he wouldn't have settled and made the school change it's admission policy.
http://www.hawaiiankingdom.info/C1295638618/E...
Funny how whites talks out of both sides of their mouths when it's convenient for them.
Why does it have to be a white kid????? The plaintiff in the suit was not named, the only thing we know is that if you want to go to that school you have to have Hawaiian blood. How do you know the one who sued is white, could be a black kid with no Hawaiian blood. That case is one where race is a specific qualifier to get to go to that school and has nothing to do with the affirmative action case at hand.

APV

“You were saying about bp aging”

Level 3

Since: Apr 08

still busy trolling??

#40 Oct 16, 2013
Robert wrote:
<quoted text>
Why does it have to be a white kid????? The plaintiff in the suit was not named, the only thing we know is that if you want to go to that school you have to have Hawaiian blood. How do you know the one who sued is white, could be a black kid with no Hawaiian blood. That case is one where race is a specific qualifier to get to go to that school and has nothing to do with the affirmative action case at hand.
http://archives.starbulletin.com/2003/12/23/n...

Because it was a white kid. The sad part is that the school's tuition is very inexpensive so Hawaiian kids can afford to receive a good education per the Princess's will. The plaintiff's were wealthy and could have afforded to go to any private school but made a point to go after Kamehameha because his mother was "adopted" by a Hawaiian family (which occurs when locals take a transplant from the mainland under their wing). She lied on her son's application by stating that he was of Hawaiian blood. When she was unable to prove the bloodline, the school rejected his application...several times. The school eventually granted him admission for the 12 grade and I believe he stopped going because of harassment from the Hawaiians because he prevented an eligible Hawaiian from getting in as they had to give him a spot.

What's interesting is that some whites complain that Civil Rights are no longer an issue but as soon as it suits them he sued the school based on the Civil Rights law (that doesn't even apply to him).

Why does AA exist? Cause in 2000 we're still seeing reports of this against blacks:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tompkins_v._Alab...

Or we're seeing whites trying to play the race card when they aren't even qualified themselves;

http://gawker.com/5991588/the-white-student-s...

Once White Privilege is completely eliminated from ALL ASPECTS OF AMERICA then you have a case to say that Affirmative Action is no longer needed. Until then...go sit somewhere!
Robert

Douglasville, GA

#41 Oct 17, 2013
APV wrote:
<quoted text>
http://archives.starbulletin.com/2003/12/23/n...
Because it was a white kid. The sad part is that the school's tuition is very inexpensive so Hawaiian kids can afford to receive a good education per the Princess's will. The plaintiff's were wealthy and could have afforded to go to any private school but made a point to go after Kamehameha because his mother was "adopted" by a Hawaiian family (which occurs when locals take a transplant from the mainland under their wing). She lied on her son's application by stating that he was of Hawaiian blood. When she was unable to prove the bloodline, the school rejected his application...several times. The school eventually granted him admission for the 12 grade and I believe he stopped going because of harassment from the Hawaiians because he prevented an eligible Hawaiian from getting in as they had to give him a spot.
What's interesting is that some whites complain that Civil Rights are no longer an issue but as soon as it suits them he sued the school based on the Civil Rights law (that doesn't even apply to him).
Why does AA exist? Cause in 2000 we're still seeing reports of this against blacks:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tompkins_v._Alab...
Or we're seeing whites trying to play the race card when they aren't even qualified themselves;
http://gawker.com/5991588/the-white-student-s...
Once White Privilege is completely eliminated from ALL ASPECTS OF AMERICA then you have a case to say that Affirmative Action is no longer needed. Until then...go sit somewhere!
That is two sorry examples which have nothing to do with the current case. In one case you have an all black college in alabama trying to attract some white students with a scholarship in order to have some diversity at a 90+% black college. In the other the complaining party in Texas was not qualified to get in anyway.

That is not what we are talking about here, we are talking about situations where a white person is not just qualified but have a higher admission score than a minority who was given their slot simply because of the color of their skin.
fyut

Miami, FL

#42 Oct 17, 2013
Sneaky Pete wrote:
<quoted text>Yea, they sure are "nutjobs" for trying to preserve the things this country was built on like Christianity and the Constitution. What a bunch of kooks!
This country wasn't built on christianity. This country has been nondenominational from the start. It was founded on religious freedom. Can christians ever get over their own arrogance? They don't own this place--never have, never will.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Level 1

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#43 Oct 17, 2013
Robert wrote:
<quoted text>
That is two sorry examples which have nothing to do with the current case. In one case you have an all black college in alabama trying to attract some white students with a scholarship in order to have some diversity at a 90+% black college. In the other the complaining party in Texas was not qualified to get in anyway.
That is not what we are talking about here, we are talking about situations where a white person is not just qualified but have a higher admission score than a minority who was given their slot simply because of the color of their skin.
But it was okay when whites got every spot in college?

Your assumption is the white person is more qualified because they have a higher admission score on standardized testing.

There are OTHER factors which some schools take into consideration.

If it was okay to give whites preference just because of the color of their skin, then it's okay to do the same for blacks or Hispanics or Asians.

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