BLACK LIBERATION & INTERRACIAL LOVE: ...

BLACK LIBERATION & INTERRACIAL LOVE: Can we have it BOTH WAYS?

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“Yes WE Can! Yes we Will!”

Level 8

Since: Jul 07

Baltimore, Md.

#1 Oct 24, 2010
Comments in the French Thread by Brother From Germany and Attai has prompted me to raise this issue here: Is there a CONTRADICTTION between being committed to the liberation of one's own black people and being romantically committed to a non-Black (especially WHITE) person?

Can you effective promote the elevation, the self-determination of Blacks if your lover or spouse is not Black?
Would your effectiveness be limited? Could you not be as devoted to the well being of your people as any other Black person whose wife or husband is black?
Why? Or why not?

P.S. Please don't start the ususl tiresome rants about how black women or black men are no good, stupid, lazy etc. I want an IBTELLIGENT discusion only of this issue, an issue which is largely political--at least as political as personal.

“Yes WE Can! Yes we Will!”

Level 8

Since: Jul 07

Baltimore, Md.

#2 Oct 24, 2010
IR Love and Black Liberation

My own take is that a black person CAN be committed to the betterment of the conditions of Black people even if one's spouse or lover is not black.
Moreover, I respect the rights of any man or woman to love whom he/she pleases regardless of whether this means crossing the color line.
But I suspect that it might be complicated if you're in a position of LEADERSHIP, at least leadership on a national scale.
Could either Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. or Malcolm X have had the same legitimacy as leaders among their own people if they had been married to white women?
In Dr. King's case, it might have been impossible to return to the South, and he might not have been able to lead the Montgomery Bus Boycott.
But aside from these restrictions imposed by whites (not to mentinn danger to his LIFE if he returned South with a white bride), could Dr. King have been seen as a LEGITIMATE leader by his own people?
I think he could have been as COMMITTED, but would he have been as ACCEPTED in the community?
Needless to say, Malcolm X could not have entered the Nation of Islam with a white wife.
Could he have been an effective leader of a SECULAR, progressive black nationalist movement?

I think interracially linked black people CAN be as committed. But I'm not sure how EFFECTIVE as NATIONAL leaders they can be.
That doesn't meke them less DEVOTED, but the climate in America would probably stifle them.

“Yes WE Can! Yes we Will!”

Level 8

Since: Jul 07

Baltimore, Md.

#3 Oct 24, 2010
Sell outs?

That's what some call those black men and/or women who have non-Black spouses or lovers. But is that fair.
Maybe if we're speaking of Clarence Thomas.
But what about Frantz Fanon or Amilcar Cabral?
Both men had white spouses, but gave their lives for the liberation of Mother Africa.
Fanon was subjected to assasssination attempts because of his revolutionary commitments.
Cabral was assasinated.
Frederick Douglass' second wife was white, but that didn't seem to affect his commitment to black people.
Lorraine Hansberry, playwright and author of A RAISIN IN THE SUN, was a committed spokesperson for black liberation here and in Africa. Was her commitment of less value because her husband was white?
Lena Horne and Harry Belafonte were both married to whites, but were committed to black liberation.
Both Dr. King and Corretta Scott King mentioned their friendship with Harry Belafonte, and his valuable help with many of Dr. King's campaigns in the South.(See in particular references to Belafonte's efforts in King's book, WHY WE CAN'T WAIT).
Moreover, Harry Belafonte, unlike Bill Cosby who DID NOT commit during the 1960s, is not getting up in the white corporate media to vilify poor African-Americans.
The interracially married Belafonte (Poitier also) are obviously MORE committed to Black people than the non-IR married Cosby,
And while IR relations and marriages were obviously LESS common in the 1960s than now, there were numerous people in such relations who nonetheless risked the lives in Mississippi and Alabama for the freedom of black people.
Are their risks, their commitments, less valuable because of their PERSONAL choices of a mate?

“OccultKilla Of Megalomanics!”

Level 1

Since: Apr 10

Location hidden

#4 Oct 24, 2010
I think that people who typically date/marry out who still wants to help liberate its people is in delusional subvortex of reality!

Unfortunately, people involved in IR have a tendency to push their love on others in hopes that everyone will accept their relationship whilst both parties stay connected to his/her own culture.

The problem with that logic is that too many PEOPLE who date others but try to stay connected to his/her own nationality but lose connections to the majority of their people (not all people are against IR but not all people accept them either).

Although his/her intentions may be admirable, it is still a delusional psychosis that many IR people to not properly analyze. Here in the Westernized (or white) Hemisphere, there is a hatred between the master and his slave. It is a generational hatred which cannot be combated with IR mixing. That in itself is delusional.

One cannot put a band aid on hatred for one another b/c of foul treatment and hardcore slave labor from the master to the slave and expect many of us who still see the repercussions to just accept IR couples as a norm. I can honestly state that Black people as a whole are worrying about far more pressing matters such as un-underemployment, racial profiling, racism, decent grocery stores/good schools for our children in urban areas, buying power, home ownership, and basic survival.

Many of us so-called Blacks aren't thinking about IR couples much less 1/2 of that ratio trying to fight for minority causes. If one helps so be it. However, it is still not a direct concern for most AA. We are seriously trying to survive in this western hemisphere & the last thing we as AA people care about is the fact that individuals who date/marry out trying to validate THEMSELVES by doing something with his/her own community.

At this point, it's survival of the fittest with no regard to an IR couple or their immediate attributes regarding minority injustices--not to mention this benefits them just as much as it does the LGBT community when they fight injustices & ride off the backs of Blacks aka Civil Rights just like Women, Irish, LGBT, Spanish, Asian Movements, etc. All of them benefited from OUR MOVEMENT but US.

“OccultKilla Of Megalomanics!”

Level 1

Since: Apr 10

Location hidden

#5 Oct 24, 2010
BTW: I do not speak of ALL AA so let me make that disclaimer right now.

I base these facts on traveling outside the USA, personal experience, keen observation,and shop talk (lol).

Again, let me be perfectly clear: I absolutely cannot speak for ALL BM/W on this key issue.
MOSES-1

United States

#6 Oct 24, 2010
Ah ha, a good thread.

Liberation is not compatible with ANY relationship. Relationships are DEPENDENT oriented and relationships are like an un-written contract or agreement.

EXAMPLE

Nobody want to be involved with a liberated Tiger Woods.

“Israel uses Jim Crow Terrorism”

Level 7

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#7 Oct 24, 2010
Uh, no. They are inherently contradictory...
Keepin It Movin

Morehead City, NC

#8 Oct 24, 2010
Sit cha know-it-all azz down!!!

Since: Jul 09

Location hidden

#9 Oct 24, 2010
You can't have two states of mind. How can one talk black, but sleep white? A black person in a Irr would never be taken seriously because it wreaks of hypocrisy. If you are truly committed to black liberation, then your household would and should reflect that. By being with a black partner and procreatiing a black family.

The examples that were given of blacks in the past, in Irr and their socalled black liberation fight, today, more than ever would never be fully accepted today. They were more so, back in those days just tolerated, but they truly lost respect from blacks who believe and support black unity. They were talked about and looked upon as hypocrites. So no, you can't talk black and sleep white. No matter how much some blacks think they can have it both ways, to the majority of blacks it will be looked upon as hypocrisy, and therefore not truly respected.

Level 8

Since: May 08

Pacific Northwest

#11 Oct 24, 2010
Nzingha wrote:
You can't have two states of mind. How can one talk black, but sleep white? A black person in a Irr would never be taken seriously because it wreaks of hypocrisy. If you are truly committed to black liberation, then your household would and should reflect that. By being with a black partner and procreatiing a black family....
What if you find out (after the fact) that your black partner does not *truly* have the stomach for the struggle for black liberation, and that he/she is threatening a divorce if you spend one more dollar on a rifle or shotgun?
Nzingha wrote:
...So no, you can't talk black and sleep white. No matter how much some blacks think they can have it both ways, to the majority of blacks it will be looked upon as hypocrisy, and therefore not truly respected.
Does it bother you that there are white revolutionary fighters who've been killed or done hard prison time for acts and beliefs that many "conservative" African-Americans wouldn't touch with a 10-foot-pole?

For example, think of John Brown vs. Michael Steele. LOL
MOSES-1

United States

#12 Oct 24, 2010
Dolomite_James wrote:
The ultimate goal of the oppressed black man is to be white: Frantz Fanon
Enough Said.
Would Frantz by any chance be a black man? Hell to the naw!

"The ultimate goal of the reprobate white man is to be black. Sun tanning is as close as it get and the white man stroll like the rooster when he's tanned"

MOSES-1

Since: Jul 09

Location hidden

#13 Oct 24, 2010
Dolomite_James wrote:
The ultimate goal of the oppressed black man is to be white: Frantz Fanon
Enough Said.
Frantz Fanon had a lot of negative comments for black women with white men, but yet he was married to a white woman. The hypocrisy of blacks who talk black and sleep white definitely comes from a place of selfhate and delusions.
MOSES-1

United States

#14 Oct 24, 2010
Black "people" in IRR relationships try to mix apples with oranges, sparrows with robins, honey bee with wasp, buffalo with cows and king cobra with rattle snake.

Dr. Laura's episode in it's entirety, from the white husband, his associates and Dr. Laura were completely indifferent to the bw's plight and NICCA, NICCA, NICCA will haunt this sister for the rest of her life.

That's not to mention the affect of being called HYPERSENSITIVE. Thus, this sister will be exposed to additional abuse and feel apprehensive to say anything.

“OccultKilla Of Megalomanics!”

Level 1

Since: Apr 10

Location hidden

#15 Oct 24, 2010
Nzingha wrote:
You can't have two states of mind. How can one talk black, but sleep white? A black person in a Irr would never be taken seriously because it wreaks of hypocrisy. If you are truly committed to black liberation, then your household would and should reflect that. By being with a black partner and procreatiing a black family.
The examples that were given of blacks in the past, in Irr and their socalled black liberation fight, today, more than ever would never be fully accepted today. They were more so, back in those days just tolerated, but they truly lost respect from blacks who believe and support black unity. They were talked about and looked upon as hypocrites. So no, you can't talk black and sleep white. No matter how much some blacks think they can have it both ways, to the majority of blacks it will be looked upon as hypocrisy, and therefore not truly respected.
Very eloquent and well stated. Cosign.

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#16 Oct 24, 2010
The way I view it is I'm black. I will always be black from birth to death. I look in the mirror, I will be black. There's no other way I can classify it. If I date someone outside of my race, that makes me a sell out? No one in their right mind would view other than “a black person.” If I date a person from Africa is that being a sell out? After all, the have no idea what my ancestors struggled for.

“Yes WE Can! Yes we Will!”

Level 8

Since: Jul 07

Baltimore, Md.

#17 Oct 24, 2010
Dolomite_James wrote:
The ultimate goal of the oppressed black man is to be white: Frantz Fanon
Enough Said.
I take it that you're referring to a comment by Frantz Fanon in BLACK SKINS, WHITE MASKS. FANON thought this to be so only insofar as that black still had a colonized mind.

“Yes WE Can! Yes we Will!”

Level 8

Since: Jul 07

Baltimore, Md.

#18 Oct 24, 2010
Nzingha wrote:
<quoted text>
Frantz Fanon had a lot of negative comments for black women with white men, but yet he was married to a white woman. The hypocrisy of blacks who talk black and sleep white definitely comes from a place of selfhate and delusions.
Actually, his comments referred to black women such as Mayotte Capecia whose works show a complete assimilation of the values of colonialism.
Actually, Frantz Fanon was not opposed to IR marriage. He speaks of love as a "gift of the self."
He speaks of "true authentic love--wishing for others what one postulates for oneself" in Chapter 2 of Black Skins, White Masks. He makes a point of affirming "Today I believe in the possibility of love..." But he also thinks that love--whether interracial or intraracial "will remain unattainable before one has purged oneself of that feeling of inferiority that or that Adlerian exaltation, that overcompensation, which seem" to mark the black worldview.
As Dr. T. Denean Sharpley-Whiting points out in her book FRANTZ FANON: CONFLICTS & FEMINISM and her article "Anti-Black Femininity and Mixed Identity: Engaging Fanon to Reread Capecia," the critical point for Fanon was whether genuine love--regardless of the race fo the partners --was to be possible, or thwarted by the alienation of colonialism and racism.
He didn't believe that it was inherently impossible for black men or women to love "outside" their race. The question is the motivations...were they healthy or unhealthy. If one chooses a white mate because you're enamored of whiteness, then that speaks for itself.

Since: Jul 09

Location hidden

#19 Oct 24, 2010
Savant wrote:
<quoted text>
I take it that you're referring to a comment by Frantz Fanon in BLACK SKINS, WHITE MASKS. FANON thought this to be so only insofar as that black still had a colonized mind.
Colonized mind, with a white woman on his arms?
Justin Igger

United States

#20 Oct 24, 2010
Savant wrote:
Comments in the French Thread by Brother From Germany and Attai has prompted me to raise this issue here: Is there a CONTRADICTTION between being committed to the liberation of one's own black people and being romantically committed to a non-Black (especially WHITE) person?
Can you effective promote the elevation, the self-determination of Blacks if your lover or spouse is not Black?
Would your effectiveness be limited? Could you not be as devoted to the well being of your people as any other Black person whose wife or husband is black?
Why? Or why not?
P.S. Please don't start the ususl tiresome rants about how black women or black men are no good, stupid, lazy etc. I want an IBTELLIGENT discusion only of this issue, an issue which is largely political--at least as political as personal.
what are you some kinda white spook?

“Yes WE Can! Yes we Will!”

Level 8

Since: Jul 07

Baltimore, Md.

#21 Oct 24, 2010
Ezra_Yisrael1970 wrote:
I think that people who typically date/marry out who still wants to help liberate its people is in delusional subvortex of reality!
Unfortunately, people involved in IR have a tendency to push their love on others in hopes that everyone will accept their relationship whilst both parties stay connected to his/her own culture.
The problem with that logic is that too many PEOPLE who date others but try to stay connected to his/her own nationality but lose connections to the majority of their people (not all people are against IR but not all people accept them either).
Although his/her intentions may be admirable, it is still a delusional psychosis that many IR people to not properly analyze. Here in the Westernized (or white) Hemisphere, there is a hatred between the master and his slave. It is a generational hatred which cannot be combated with IR mixing. That in itself is delusional.
One cannot put a band aid on hatred for one another b/c of foul treatment and hardcore slave labor from the master to the slave and expect many of us who still see the repercussions to just accept IR couples as a norm. I can honestly state that Black people as a whole are worrying about far more pressing matters such as un-underemployment, racial profiling, racism, decent grocery stores/good schools for our children in urban areas, buying power, home ownership, and basic survival.
Many of us so-called Blacks aren't thinking about IR couples much less 1/2 of that ratio trying to fight for minority causes. If one helps so be it. However, it is still not a direct concern for most AA. We are seriously trying to survive in this western hemisphere & the last thing we as AA people care about is the fact that individuals who date/marry out trying to validate THEMSELVES by doing something with his/her own community.
At this point, it's survival of the fittest with no regard to an IR couple or their immediate attributes regarding minority injustices--not to mention this benefits them just as much as it does the LGBT community when they fight injustices & ride off the backs of Blacks aka Civil Rights just like Women, Irish, LGBT, Spanish, Asian Movements, etc. All of them benefited from OUR MOVEMENT but US.
I doubt that a leader of the stature of Dr. King or Malcolm x could function in that position witha white mate. It would certainly be difficult. At least that would e difficult in America...maybe also South Africa, at least in the 1970s---1990s.
But what are we to say of Amilcar Cabral who devoted his life to the liberation of Guinea-Bissau from Portuguese colonialism, and got asssassinated because of it? Though IR relaiions and marriages were RARE in the 1960s, some sisters and brothers involved in such relations were willing to risk their lives fighting for our freedom in Mississippi and Alabama. Was their courage any less than other non-IR blacks (obviously a majority)who risked their lives?

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