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#46
Dec 12, 2009
 

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Pere du Champ wrote:
Cro-Magnon were the first Homo sapiens to enter Europe. Their Y-haplotype is I, which is sister to J, the haplotype of the SW Asian Semitic speakers. The Berbers also came out of the Mideast and are related to these 2.
Cro-Magnon are the ones who interacted with neandertals in Europe. It is still argued whether they were violent against them or just out-competed them for resources. They are the ones who made the famous cave paintings such as at Altamira, Spain and Lascaux, France. The proliferated for a while and then another glacial episode forced them into refuges in Iberia, the Italian Peninsula and the Balkans. When the climate warmed again, they again spread northward to repopulate Europe.
They form the base of the European population. They were mixed with later immigrants, including Neolithics from the Mideast carrying haplotypes J (Mideast), G (Caucasus) and E (African, from the Natufians). Later Aryans, haplotype R, entered.
Today pureblood Cro-Magnon descendants are found mostly in the West, such as in central Ireland, Wales and places in the mountains of northern Iberia.
Before the Cro-Magnon Homo sapiens migrated to Europe, where did they come from? And what did they look like before the European climate affected them?

And how do you know all this? Did you study this in university? I want to make sure you're a credible source.
Pere du Champ

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#47
Dec 13, 2009
 

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Yes I've studied anthropology and have taught in college the course "Intro to Physical Anthropology" which deals with these subjects. I also keep up on all the latest anthro news.

Cro-Magnon apparently was in the Mideast. It likely was the group which moved first north from there, into the mountains or maybe steppes. Cro-Magnon's Y-haplotype is I. Earlier there had been an IJ type in the Mideast, and it split into I (Cro-Magnon) and J (SW Asian Semites).

Cro-Magnon was heavier than modern Europeans. As all people at that time (40,000 years ago) they often show residual archaic traits, such as suggestions of browridges. They had tropical limb proportions, which cause some to say that they came out of Africa, but this is unlikely.

Since the highest % of Cro-Magnon ancestry today is found along the western edge of Europe, we might say that they looked like Tom Jones or Sean Connery... We know that the blonde-blueeyed gene arose among the Aryans, so the Cro-Magnon likely had dark hair and skin color like modern Mediterraneans-Mideasterners. But this is still not determined with certainty.

One recent reconstruction had them looking "black", but this is also unlikely in fact. Afronazis of course claim they were black, that everyone in Europe was black until the Aryans... but that is preposterous.
sam

London, UK

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#48
Dec 13, 2009
 
Pere du Champ wrote:
Yes I've studied anthropology and have taught in college the course "Intro to Physical Anthropology" which deals with these subjects. I also keep up on all the latest anthro news.
Cro-Magnon apparently was in the Mideast. It likely was the group which moved first north from there, into the mountains or maybe steppes. Cro-Magnon's Y-haplotype is I. Earlier there had been an IJ type in the Mideast, and it split into I (Cro-Magnon) and J (SW Asian Semites).
Cro-Magnon was heavier than modern Europeans. As all people at that time (40,000 years ago) they often show residual archaic traits, such as suggestions of browridges. They had tropical limb proportions, which cause some to say that they came out of Africa, but this is unlikely.
Since the highest % of Cro-Magnon ancestry today is found along the western edge of Europe, we might say that they looked like Tom Jones or Sean Connery... We know that the blonde-blueeyed gene arose among the Aryans, so the Cro-Magnon likely had dark hair and skin color like modern Mediterraneans-Mideasterners. But this is still not determined with certainty.
One recent reconstruction had them looking "black", but this is also unlikely in fact. Afronazis of course claim they were black, that everyone in Europe was black until the Aryans... but that is preposterous.
do you think cushites and berbers mixed a lot, could that be reason for cushites to have eurasia DNA and why berbers have a lot of E3b? and do you think this may have occured in egypt.
Pere du Champ

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#49
Dec 13, 2009
 

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Which Cushites? They are spread over a wide area, from West Africa to Somalia. So it's hard to answer that.

No doubt the E3b in Berbers was from someone from E Africa... Egyptians, or whom is not clear.
sam

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#50
Dec 13, 2009
 
Pere du Champ wrote:
Which Cushites? They are spread over a wide area, from West Africa to Somalia. So it's hard to answer that.
No doubt the E3b in Berbers was from someone from E Africa... Egyptians, or whom is not clear.
the north eastern cushites, like the beja, afar, oromos, somalis etc
Algerino

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#51
Dec 13, 2009
 

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Adara wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL
You think Berbers are white??? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
I am Kabyl berber a blonde haired with blue eyes.
you must have less info ( sorry for the word )

here I give you a famous Kabyl berber
http://www.staragora.com/images/flux/default/...
isn't he white?
paul

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#54
Jan 8, 2010
 

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RAGGA 007 wrote:
<quoted text>
IT is QUITE SIMPLE.
The ones that LOOK WHITE can TRACE their MATERNAL LINEAGE to EUROPE.
The BLACK BERBERS BROUGHT WHITE WOMEN from EUROPE as CONCUBINES and SLAVES to NORTH AFRICA.
you wrong actually the white slaves that were captured by arabs sailing around europe not by blacks and there is no such thing as black berbers. thats like saying white chinese people. They were slaves though.
l-ray

Pineville, LA

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#55
Jan 8, 2010
 
Look at this wrote:
Since y'all on here are focus on hating white people and white people think we came from Europe, please explain to me about the Berbers, an indiginous African group from North Africa, who look white with blonde hair and everything...
Race is stupid...essentially we are all the same. So y'all who are saying white are this and that your dissing your African brothers and sisters "the berbers." So Black and White supremest explain this one...
Here is proof
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_people
White looking Berbers aren't idigenous Africans...They are mutts whom ancestors were brought as slaves/concubines to North Africa by the Moors and arab masters a long time ago

http://www.osu.edu/researchnews/archive/whtsl...
paul

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#56
Jan 8, 2010
 
Adara wrote:
<quoted text>
You seriously believe this??
I don't think Berbers are black but to say they're white is absurd.
Ps. I posted pictures of real Berbers. They have allways had caucasian features but they were much darker before the Arabs invaded their land and started mixing with them.
berbers are white well they look white Hispanic as well , 1500 berbers Moroccans came from morocco to neston uk . some have blonde hair and blue eyes i was shocked. most of them them have dark green mousy hair while others look Hispanic . i can only speak for the ones i have met but apart from being muslim they could pass as european easily.

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#57
Jan 8, 2010
 
paul wrote:
<quoted text>
berbers are white well they look white Hispanic as well , 1500 berbers Moroccans came from morocco to neston uk . some have blonde hair and blue eyes i was shocked. most of them them have dark green mousy hair while others look Hispanic . i can only speak for the ones i have met but apart from being muslim they could pass as european easily.
That's weird because I've been to Morocco and they all looked like Arabs. There were even a few that looked completely black.
Moors

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#58
Jan 24, 2010
 
Adara wrote:
<quoted text>
That's weird because I've been to Morocco and they all looked like Arabs. There were even a few that looked completely black.
Berbers do not look like Arabs. Do people in Saudi Arabia and Yemen look like Berbers to you?
Moors

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#59
Jan 24, 2010
 
Arab can mean many things today. The White Lebanese types are Arabs and so are the dark complexion Palestinians.

But the original Arabs came from what is now Saudi Arabia and Yemen area. And some of these Arabs are White (Caucasian).
Moors

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#60
Jan 24, 2010
 
paul wrote:
<quoted text>
berbers are white well they look white Hispanic as well , 1500 berbers Moroccans came from morocco to neston uk . some have blonde hair and blue eyes i was shocked. most of them them have dark green mousy hair while others look Hispanic . i can only speak for the ones i have met but apart from being muslim they could pass as european easily.
Is always a vicious cycle when people become infatuated with racial categories and racial origins. Did the Moors leave a genetic imprint in Spain since many Spaniards and Berbers look a like? Or is that the Spaniards and Berbers have the same ancestors before the arrival of the Moors in Spain. There is so much genetic tests refuting one another and so much arguing back and forth that we can't make a firm agreement.

Any by the way, who were the Arabs? They just like the Berbers and Persians in the Medieval times were mostly Caucasians. Today, some of them are mixed with Black, Turks or even Mongol.

“Dass wut Ahm tawkeen bawt!”

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#61
Jan 25, 2010
 

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l-ray wrote:
<quoted text>
White looking Berbers aren't idigenous Africans...They are mutts whom ancestors were brought as slaves/concubines to North Africa by the Moors and arab masters a long time ago
http://www.osu.edu/researchnews/archive/whtsl...
All talk and no proof. 1000 years from now if immigration continues as it is, your future Afrocentrists'll be saying the same exact thing about Europe.

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpr...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...
Here's a cave painting from 3000 BC and an Egyptian drawing of a North African Libyan. So, what, did these Muslims have time machines and send their slaves back in time?

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#62
Jan 25, 2010
 
Moors wrote:
<quoted text>
Berbers do not look like Arabs. Do people in Saudi Arabia and Yemen look like Berbers to you?
Yes, only most Berbers are darker.
Barros Serrano

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#63
Jan 25, 2010
 
Cushites... an interesting case, they are. Apparently stemming from the same root as Semitic-speaking Africans, showing evidence of having migrated through the Nile Valley SOUTHWARD (!!!), or having mixed with folks who did.

The Berbers... apparently were originally, 30,000 years ago when they entered Africa, from the Mideast. The DNA indicates this. In Africa they picked up the E3b... from whom is not conclusive, it would seem either Egyptians or Cushites. What has to be understood is that peoples without cities and such are heavily influenced by more "advanced" people. This is how the Aryan (Indoeuropean) languages spread into Europe. Even people with no Aryan ancestry speak those languages today simply because the Aryans were more powerful, established the dominant trade economy, brought cattle, advanced metal-working, etc., with them, and so their languages replaced the indigenous ones.

I think this is why the Berbers speak an Afroasiatic language... because of EGYPT. Egypt played in N Africa the role Aryans played in Europe. In the process some Egyptian DNA would have been absorbed by the Berbers... and that would explain the E3b.

Keep in mind that Berber types inhabited even the northern part of Egypt at the time Egyptian civilization began in the South. There they were absorbed into the expanding civilization, but those away from the Nile were affected by Egypt but not absorbed ethnically. Today Berbers are found no further east than Siwa, in western Egypt.

This story that Afrocentrics love, about the Berbers being "white" because of Roman slavery, Vandals, Arab/Turkish slavery of Slavs, etc., is NOT true. The Berber Eurasian DNA is not that of those peoples. It is of several types, first the basic original 30,000 yr old Mideastern type closely related to the European Cro-Magnon (also of Mideastern and steppe origin, in other words, the people just to the North of the Berber ancestors), and the 2nd most prominent Eurasian DNA in the Berber is that of the Neolithic immigrants, also from the Mideast.

After that there is Arab and other Eurasian DNA but in smaller %.

And then there are the Guanches... 6000 yrs isolated on the Canary Islands, with DNA showing they are of BERBER origin, and they were WHITE. That was LONG before any Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans, Vandals or anyone else had been to North Africa.

Berbers vary from place to place. In southern Morocco they are quite black. The Kabyle are very white. Berbers live over such a wide area, we should expect this.

As for E3b... well, Europeans also have E subtypes, which are of African origin. So are the Greeks black? Well, a little... so are ALL European nations. But I don't think we could then say that the Europeans are "black"... Well, nor are the Berbers, generally, with exceptions such as southern Morocco.
Moors

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#64
Jan 25, 2010
 
Barros Serrano wrote:
Cushites... an interesting case, they are. Apparently stemming from the same root as Semitic-speaking Africans, showing evidence of having migrated through the Nile Valley SOUTHWARD (!!!), or having mixed with folks who did.
The Berbers... apparently were originally, 30,000 years ago when they entered Africa, from the Mideast. The DNA indicates this. In Africa they picked up the E3b... from whom is not conclusive, it would seem either Egyptians or Cushites. What has to be understood is that peoples without cities and such are heavily influenced by more "advanced" people. This is how the Aryan (Indoeuropean) languages spread into Europe. Even people with no Aryan ancestry speak those languages today simply because the Aryans were more powerful, established the dominant trade economy, brought cattle, advanced metal-working, etc., with them, and so their languages replaced the indigenous ones.
I think this is why the Berbers speak an Afroasiatic language... because of EGYPT. Egypt played in N Africa the role Aryans played in Europe. In the process some Egyptian DNA would have been absorbed by the Berbers... and that would explain the E3b.
Keep in mind that Berber types inhabited even the northern part of Egypt at the time Egyptian civilization began in the South. There they were absorbed into the expanding civilization, but those away from the Nile were affected by Egypt but not absorbed ethnically. Today Berbers are found no further east than Siwa, in western Egypt.
This story that Afrocentrics love, about the Berbers being "white" because of Roman slavery, Vandals, Arab/Turkish slavery of Slavs, etc., is NOT true. The Berber Eurasian DNA is not that of those peoples. It is of several types, first the basic original 30,000 yr old Mideastern type closely related to the European Cro-Magnon (also of Mideastern and steppe origin, in other words, the people just to the North of the Berber ancestors), and the 2nd most prominent Eurasian DNA in the Berber is that of the Neolithic immigrants, also from the Mideast.
After that there is Arab and other Eurasian DNA but in smaller %.
And then there are the Guanches... 6000 yrs isolated on the Canary Islands, with DNA showing they are of BERBER origin, and they were WHITE. That was LONG before any Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans, Vandals or anyone else had been to North Africa.
Berbers vary from place to place. In southern Morocco they are quite black. The Kabyle are very white. Berbers live over such a wide area, we should expect this.
As for E3b... well, Europeans also have E subtypes, which are of African origin. So are the Greeks black? Well, a little... so are ALL European nations. But I don't think we could then say that the Europeans are "black"... Well, nor are the Berbers, generally, with exceptions such as southern Morocco.
Don't forget that many Spaniards are physcially similar to the Berbers and also to the Guanches. The Moors in Spain were really no different from the Christians in terms of physical looks.

Take a look here of the Guanches and Spaniards:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...
Moors

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#65
Jan 25, 2010
 

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Adara wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, only most Berbers are darker.
Wrong, both Berbers and Arabs have variation in skin tones. This is false.
Barros Serrano

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#66
Jan 25, 2010
 
DNA analyses I've seen suggest that Spain has far more Sephardic than Berber blood.

However, Jews and Berbers aren't that far apart in appearance... both are Mediterranean-Mideastern types mostly.

However, MOST of Spanish ancestry remains that of the indigenous Iberians.

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#67
Jan 25, 2010
 
Moors wrote:
<quoted text>
Wrong, both Berbers and Arabs have variation in skin tones. This is false.
Lol, I've been to Morocco. Believe me, most of them are dark.

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