I need proof that the Ancient Egyptians Were Not Black

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Gmoney

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#19669
Jan 4, 2014
 
Ish Tov wrote:
<quoted text>
This argument gets into much semantic confusion. OOA migrants, ancestral to all non-Africans, did indeed originate in Africa, specifically splitting off from mtDNA L3 northeast Africans.
Once in Eurasia, and apparently very quickly after OOA, they evolved distinct genetic types, their mtDNA being either M or N (daughters of L3).
In then discussing who populated where, we can legitimately make the distinction between Africans (those remaining in Africa, with mtDNA L), and Eurasians (everyone else, with mtDNA M & N and their daughters).
At the same time we can say “everyone is an African” since the common ancestry of Africans and Eurasians is in Africa. I used the term “African” to mean those who remained, because since everyone was originally African, what's the point of using the word to mean everyone?
Long after OOA, there was then migration in both directions between Eurasia and Africa. So I can say,“Africans were in the Levant”, referring to Natufians, or “Eurasians were in the Maghreb”, referring to proto-Berbers.
One can NOT reasonably say,“Cro-Magnon were African” because they were entirely descended from OOA Eurasians with U (descendant of N) mtDNA (plus a bit of neandertalensis, but not in their mtDNA).
Afronazis use this semantic confusion when they're punked & debunked (which is inevitable) about their claims on some Eurasians, for example, Cro-Magnon, by then squawking,“but everyone is African!” In other words, suddenly change what is meant by “African”. Because, no, Cro-Magnon were Eurasian.
Wrong because what you are doing is eliminating African from who these people were and you are throwing in punctuated equilibrium without reason. There is no proof that this punctuated equilibrium happened at the time if ooa. There is also no proof that the change of the afroasiatic people in the Middle East even changed drastically. Their DNA could have me or n but that does not mean they were straight haired people with white or near white skin. None of this points to you being able to call these ooa migrants Eurasian when their is nothing that points to them being defined as so other than them moving into that region. The DNA they had generations after leaving Africa still produced physical features of a black man much like an East African today and it doesn't make sense for it not to be that way. Black afroasiayic people is what they were after the ooa migration and for many generations afterwards even up to then migrating back into Africa.
Gmoney

Woodbridge, VA

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#19670
Jan 4, 2014
 
Ish Tov wrote:
<quoted text>
Where did anyone say Africans made no contribution to the rest of the world?
Since I assert, as per the evidence, that Egyptian civilization arose among black people, then certainly Africans DID contribute to the world, since the influence of Egypt was widespread in Eurasia.
Do you EVER get it right? I haven't seen it yet.
Uhh stop acting stupid.... Your butt buddy African AE, white democrat and some other loser were stating these things clearly.
Gmoney

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#19671
Jan 4, 2014
 
Ish Tov wrote:
<quoted text>
This coward now ignores that he was thoroughly punked & debunked on the meaning of “tweaking”, LOL!!!
No surprise! Another Afronazi who when confronted with FACTS contradicting his stupidity, runs like a mouse!
Coward.
Halfwit.
How was I punked and debunked by you about tweaking???? You said it meant being on method and that definition came from the urban dictionary. I'm not discrediting the urban dictionary but websters dictionary and Wikipedia have definitions from the original English language. Tweaking means to pull and twist something sharply. That's why tweakers in a speaker are called tweakers dumb ass. You didn't punk and debunk anyone. You still think it means to be on meth you dumb crackhead.
Gmoney

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#19672
Jan 4, 2014
 
Ish Tov wrote:
<quoted text>
This coward now ignores that he was thoroughly punked & debunked on the meaning of “tweaking”, LOL!!!
No surprise! Another Afronazi who when confronted with FACTS contradicting his stupidity, runs like a mouse!
Coward.
Halfwit.
Oh and I'm not running anywhere. We are on computers and hand held devices. Run from what??? Your typing??? I didn't see any facts about the real word tweaking from you. All I saw was an ex meth head trying to prove that the state of mind he use to be in after hitting that pipe was called tweaking when in fact it was called "you are wasting your life". Seems to me you are trying to deflect the fact that I just posted yet again some facts about the very real afroasiatic people.

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#19674
Jan 4, 2014
 
Gmoney wrote:
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Wrong because what you are doing is eliminating African from who these people were and you are throwing in punctuated equilibrium without reason. There is no proof that this punctuated equilibrium happened at the time if ooa. There is also no proof that the change of the afroasiatic people in the Middle East even changed drastically. Their DNA could have me or n but that does not mean they were straight haired people with white or near white skin. None of this points to you being able to call these ooa migrants Eurasian when their is nothing that points to them being defined as so other than them moving into that region. The DNA they had generations after leaving Africa still produced physical features of a black man much like an East African today and it doesn't make sense for it not to be that way. Black afroasiayic people is what they were after the ooa migration and for many generations afterwards even up to then migrating back into Africa.
Gibberish.

Tell us, Gaymoney, what does “tweaking” mean?

LOL!!! You lowlife, you haven't the integrity to admit you were punked & debunked on that issue.

Liar. Dropout.

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#19675
Jan 4, 2014
 
Gaymoney wrote:
<quoted text>
Uhh stop acting stupid.... Your butt buddy African AE, white democrat and some other loser were stating these things clearly.
Well, I never said it.

By the way, what does “tweaking” mean?

No answer, liar?

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#19676
Jan 4, 2014
 
Gaymoney the tweaker wrote:
<quoted text>
How was I punked and debunked by you about tweaking???? You said it meant being on method and that definition came from the urban dictionary. I'm not discrediting the urban dictionary but websters dictionary and Wikipedia have definitions from the original English language. Tweaking means to pull and twist something sharply. That's why tweakers in a speaker are called tweakers dumb ass. You didn't punk and debunk anyone. You still think it means to be on meth you dumb crackhead.
It is used to mean meth-using, you fool.

LOL at how pathetic you are... proven wrong you still whine. Yet you think the word “twerking” is real! LOL!!!

You lost, boy. I proved you wrong as I do on EVERYTHING.

Nothing for you to do but cry cry cry, boy.

Yes, tweaking means to use meth. Several sources confirmed that, and in the sense of repetitive movement induced by drugs, it IS standard English, not slang.

You're pathetic, you gutless punk.

Admit you're wrong, boy, or prove to everyone that you're completely inconsequential.

Yes, you're PUNKED & DEBUNKED!!!

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#19677
Jan 4, 2014
 
Gaymoney tweaking again wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh and I'm not running anywhere. We are on computers and hand held devices. Run from what??? Your typing??? I didn't see any facts about the real word tweaking from you. All I saw was an ex meth head trying to prove that the state of mind he use to be in after hitting that pipe was called tweaking when in fact it was called "you are wasting your life". Seems to me you are trying to deflect the fact that I just posted yet again some facts about the very real afroasiatic people.
Wrong, boy. Tweaking means meth using.

And there were no afroasiatic people. It is a language category.

Likely afroasiatic languages arose in the northern Mideast, according to most evidence. So if there is an afroasiatic people, it is the Mideastern J-type people, such as Hebrews and Chaldeans.

Ýou just can't get it right on any topic, can you, boy?

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#19678
Jan 4, 2014
 
Ish Tov wrote:
<quoted text>
Wrong, boy. Tweaking means meth using.
And there were no afroasiatic people. It is a language category.
Likely afroasiatic languages arose in the northern Mideast, according to most evidence. So if there is an afroasiatic people, it is the Mideastern J-type people, such as Hebrews and Chaldeans.
Ýou just can't get it right on any topic, can you, boy?
Semitic languages, like Jewish and Arabic, arose in the Middle East. But Cushitic and Chadic languages arose in Africa.

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#19679
Jan 4, 2014
 
In fact, I can add that the Cushitic and Chadic languages arose in Africa mostly among E-P2(PN2) haplogroup carriers. E-P2 is easily the most widespread haplogroup in Africa along with other A and B haplogroups.

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#19680
Jan 4, 2014
 
AberdiTheOlodumare wrote:
<quoted text>
Semitic languages, like Jewish and Arabic, arose in the Middle East. But Cushitic and Chadic languages arose in Africa.
But still, where did the original proto-afroasiatic language arise, from which Semitic, Chadic, Cushitic, Kemetic and Berber languages are derived? That is the question, and it is not settled.

The preponderance of evidence seem to indicate a Mideastern origin, but that is not decided yet by any means. The other possibility of course is for somewhere in northeastern Africa.
motts

Bridgetown, Barbados

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#19681
Jan 4, 2014
 
Ish Tov wrote:
<quoted text>
That is exactly the case... there are people in Africa who are not “African”, or “black”. By whom I mean, of course, the Berbers.
Europeans seeing this, then referred to “black Africa” to mean “subsaharan”, to distinguish from the northern region, the Maghreb, inhabited by Eurasians.
Is that too complicated for you to grasp? Apparently so...
It is well proven that the Maghreb has been populated by Eurasians for over 30,000 years, so it is hardly “black Africa”.
Duh.
Dimwit.
More Science fiction from Barros..

Now for the truth…

"The anthropological examination of skeletons found in tombs in Carthage proves that there is no racial unity [...] The so called Semitic type, characterized by the long, perfectly oval face, the thin aquiline nose and the lengthened cranium, enlarged over the nape of the neck has not been found in Carthage. On the other hand, another cranial form, with a fairly short face, prominent parietal bumps, farther forward and lower down than is usual is common [...] most of the Punic population in Carthage had African and even Negro ancestors" - Charles Picard "Daily Life in Carthage at the time of Hannibal"

Appian relates that the figurative Ethiopians "extend from eastern Ethiopia westward to the Mauritanian Mount Atlas."

Cambridge History of Africa: "The Soninke, the people of ancient Ghana, are the northernmost Sudanic people. Before the arrival of the Berbers, their ancestors had occupied the Sahara, as is suggested by the survival of black groups in Walata, Nema, Tichit, and as far Shinqit, who speak Azer, which is a Soninke dialect." 80% of Berber Y-chromosomes originate in east Africa, south of Egypt.

"Snowden (1970) and Desanges (1981) reference various writers’ physical descriptions of the ancient Maghreb’s inhabitants. In various writers’ physical descriptions of the ancient Maghreb’s inhabitants. In addition to the presence of fair-skinned blonds, various “Ethiopian” or “part-Ethiopian” groups are described, near the coast and on the southern slopes of the Atlas mountains.“Ethiopians,” meaning dark-skinned peoples usually having “ulotrichous”(wooly) hair, are noted in various Greek accounts and European coinage (Snowden, 1970). Hiernaux (1975) interprets the finding of “subsaharan” population affinities in living Maghrebans as being solely the result of the medieval transsaharan slave trade; it is clear that this is not the case. Furthermore, the blacks of the ancient Maghreb were apparently not foreign or a caste." (S.O.Y Keita, "Studies of Ancient Crania From Northern Africa," American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 83:35-48 (1990).

 Joseph Vogel stressed: "Populations and cultures now found south of the desert roamed far to the north." (Encyclopedia of Precolonial Africa by Joseph O. Vogel, AltaMira Press, Walnut Creek, California, 1997, pp. 465-472).

"Except for the Zandj (black slaves) from lower Iraq, no large body of blacks historically linked to the trans-Saharan slave trade existed anywhere in the Arab world ... The high costs of slaves, because of the risks inherent in the desert crossing, which would have not permitted such a massive exodus ... Until the Crusades the Muslim world drew its slaves from two main sources: Eastern and Central Europe (Slavs) and Turkestan. The Sudan only came third." - Africa from the Seventh to Eleventh Century, UNESCO, 1988.

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#19683
Jan 4, 2014
 
motts wrote:
<quoted text>
More Science fiction from Barros..
Now for the truth…
"The anthropological examination of skeletons found in tombs in Carthage proves that there is no racial unity [...] The so called Semitic type, characterized by the long, perfectly oval face, the thin aquiline nose and the lengthened cranium, enlarged over the nape of the neck has not been found in Carthage. On the other hand, another cranial form, with a fairly short face, prominent parietal bumps, farther forward and lower down than is usual is common [...] most of the Punic population in Carthage had African and even Negro ancestors" - Charles Picard "Daily Life in Carthage at the time of Hannibal"
Appian relates that the figurative Ethiopians "extend from eastern Ethiopia westward to the Mauritanian Mount Atlas."
Cambridge History of Africa: "The Soninke, the people of ancient Ghana, are the northernmost Sudanic people. Before the arrival of the Berbers, their ancestors had occupied the Sahara, as is suggested by the survival of black groups in Walata, Nema, Tichit, and as far Shinqit, who speak Azer, which is a Soninke dialect." 80% of Berber Y-chromosomes originate in east Africa, south of Egypt.
"Snowden (1970) and Desanges (1981) reference various writers’ physical descriptions of the ancient Maghreb’s inhabitants. In various writers’ physical descriptions of the ancient Maghreb’s inhabitants. In addition to the presence of fair-skinned blonds, various “Ethiopian” or “part-Ethiopian” groups are described, near the coast and on the southern slopes of the Atlas mountains.“Ethiopians,” meaning dark-skinned peoples usually having “ulotrichous”(wooly) hair, are noted in various Greek accounts and European coinage (Snowden, 1970). Hiernaux (1975) interprets the finding of “subsaharan” population affinities in living Maghrebans as being solely the result of the medieval transsaharan slave trade; it is clear that this is not the case. Furthermore, the blacks of the ancient Maghreb were apparently not foreign or a caste." (S.O.Y Keita, "Studies of Ancient Crania From Northern Africa," American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 83:35-48 (1990).
 Joseph Vogel stressed: "Populations and cultures now found south of the desert roamed far to the north." (Encyclopedia of Precolonial Africa by Joseph O. Vogel, AltaMira Press, Walnut Creek, California, 1997, pp. 465-472).
"Except for the Zandj (black slaves) from lower Iraq, no large body of blacks historically linked to the trans-Saharan slave trade existed anywhere in the Arab world ... The high costs of slaves, because of the risks inherent in the desert crossing, which would have not permitted such a massive exodus ... Until the Crusades the Muslim world drew its slaves from two main sources: Eastern and Central Europe (Slavs) and Turkestan. The Sudan only came third." - Africa from the Seventh to Eleventh Century, UNESCO, 1988.
Your info does nothing to contradict mine. If there were black people in Carthage, so what? That was long after the time when Eurasians settled the Maghreb. Black people were well-known to the ancients. The Greeks described Egyptians as “black”, calling them Aethiopians.

This thread is about Egypt, and I can easily find proof that Upper Egypt was black, that Egyptian civilization arose among a combination of Nile Valley Neolithics and immigrants from the Sahara, both black.

Talk about the Maghreb on the threads about Moors.

The Maghreb has been inhabited by Eurasians for 30,000 years. I can also prove that.

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#19684
Jan 4, 2014
 
NOTE: I use the term "black" out of convenience, but it is not a good term, really. What I mean is Africans, non-OOA people. I presume y'all know that the color-coded racial categories were created by racist Euroimperialists in order that they could label non-Europeans as "non-white", create an artificial distinction between Euros and all others, in order to justify European abuse of the others, under the false assumption that somehow "white" was superior. We know that's bull$hit, those of us who are not white racists.

By "black" I mean non-OOA Africans.

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#19685
Jan 4, 2014
 
Ish Tov wrote:
<quoted text>
Your info does nothing to contradict mine. If there were black people in Carthage, so what? That was long after the time when Eurasians settled the Maghreb. Black people were well-known to the ancients. The Greeks described Egyptians as “black”, calling them Aethiopians.
This thread is about Egypt, and I can easily find proof that Upper Egypt was black, that Egyptian civilization arose among a combination of Nile Valley Neolithics and immigrants from the Sahara, both black.
Talk about the Maghreb on the threads about Moors.
The Maghreb has been inhabited by Eurasians for 30,000 years. I can also prove that.
The Maghreb was first settled by Aterians which were black Africans.

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#19686
Jan 4, 2014
 
AberdiTheOlodumare wrote:
In fact, I can add that the Cushitic and Chadic languages arose in Africa mostly among E-P2(PN2) haplogroup carriers. E-P2 is easily the most widespread haplogroup in Africa along with other A and B haplogroups.
Afroasiatic languages are a fascinating topic and deserve their own thread.

The big question is which is the oldest sub-group, and from where did it come?

Linguists have long believed that language similarities cannot be discerned going back further than 6000 years, but I've increasingly seen work that does claim perceived relationships older than that.

I read one study which claimed that Semitic or proto-Semitic words were brought into Europe by the Neolithic migrants from Anatolia/Mideast. This was longer ago than 6000 years, obviously.

Everything I've read traces each afroasiatic branch back to a certain point geographically and chronologically, but nobody has convincingly connected these various sub-groups to each other, nor even established which are most related to which other ones. Every linguist seems to draw a different schematic for this.

My own opinion is that Kemetic is intrusive, as it is surrounded by Nilosaharan languages, as if it were brought up the Nile from the Mideast. However, unlike in Europe, the Neolithic brought crops but not much DNA into Upper Egypt. Semitic was thought to have originated in Ethiopia until linguists excluded Omotic from the afroasiatic phylum. Tamazigh... who knows with which migration from the Mideast it was brought in. Chadic was obviously brought in by migration, and likely up the Nile, but from where exactly?

This whole topic requires a lot more investigation.

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#19687
Jan 4, 2014
 
Ish Tov wrote:
NOTE: I use the term "black" out of convenience, but it is not a good term, really. What I mean is Africans, non-OOA people. I presume y'all know that the color-coded racial categories were created by racist Euroimperialists in order that they could label non-Europeans as "non-white", create an artificial distinction between Euros and all others, in order to justify European abuse of the others, under the false assumption that somehow "white" was superior. We know that's bull$hit, those of us who are not white racists.
By "black" I mean non-OOA Africans.
I don't see it that way.

The in-your-face differences between Africans, Europeans, Chinese, Native American is so striking at first that it doesn't take anything special to see there some ethnic differentiation among humans. But obviously the lines are not all cut and dry as there is many admixtures between all those people and diversity is more than welcome for any societies. It's almost what make life fun. Why bother traveling to Japan or Europe if it's exactly the same as America? Why bother ordering Chinese foods if it's similar to American foods?

So you don't need an European creation to see the difference between black and white for example. Some African ethnic groups did indeed describe European people as white when they saw them for the first time.

While I use often use the word black, it seems to disconnect African descendants from their African origin. Its like calling Italians tall people, Finnish people, red-haired people, Asian yellow people, and so on. This is just a physical attribute, not truly an ethnic identity or origin. Still, blacks, Africans, black Africans are all fine by me.

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#19688
Jan 4, 2014
 
AberdiTheOlodumare wrote:
<quoted text>
The Maghreb was first settled by Aterians which were black Africans.
Yes, they were, but they seem to have disappeared before the appearance of Mechta-Afalou types, which means that the earliest base of the Maghreb population was of Mideastern origin. I've seen no studies of DNA from anywhere near 30k yrs bp showing an African presence. There is a gap in occupation between Aterians and the first Eurasians (Mideasterners).

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#19689
Jan 4, 2014
 
Ish Tov wrote:
I read one study which claimed that Semitic or proto-Semitic words were brought into Europe by the Neolithic migrants from Anatolia/Mideast. This was longer ago than 6000 years, obviously.
Taking into account that the proto-semitic language is said to have originated around 3750 BCE, I highly doubt your information is correct.

The language didn't even exist before 6000 years ago!!!

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#19690
Jan 4, 2014
 
Ish Tov wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, they were, but they seem to have disappeared before the appearance of Mechta-Afalou types, which means that the earliest base of the Maghreb population was of Mideastern origin. I've seen no studies of DNA from anywhere near 30k yrs bp showing an African presence. There is a gap in occupation between Aterians and the first Eurasians (Mideasterners).
Some studies also say there's still traces of a very ancient, not modern, African substratum in modern coastal North African populations.
In the present work, mtDNA data show a diversified distribution of African
haplogroups. However, a question remains concerning the date of the sub-Saharan
African inputs. Our results demonstrate an ancient local evolution in Tunisia of
some African haplogroups (L2a, L3*, and L3b). The most ancient haplogroup is
L3*, which would have been introduced from eastern sub-Saharan populations to
North Africa about 20,000 years ago.

This is from the study called: Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations

Sure the dating are estimated but they have detected a ancient (not modern) "sub-Saharan" African presence to about 20 000 years ago.

From what study did you get the 30kya figure from? With that dating it would mean that they lived alongside Aterians populations for a while.

Bottom line is that Aterians occupied the North African littoral first, no matter if they left many descendants or that their descendency was diluted with the influx of other people afterward.

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