EUROPE: How do YOU view AMERICANS?

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#2936
Aug 29, 2013
 
Savant wrote:
<quoted text>From what little I've read about Generation Identitaire, it seems to be an extreme right wing form of French nationalism, fascistic and racist as well. Some of its leaders have connections, or at least a past history in the National Front.
Perhaps, Walter Hendrickson sees French fascism and racism as representative of "true" French culture.
Good definition sir though as I said before Génération identitaire weighs nearly nothing <500 people.

Tim McVeigh was more "representative" so to speak.

Wally is fascinated by Breivik nothing new.

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#2937
Aug 29, 2013
 
Sinajuavi wrote:
<quoted text>
It's not happening. The steps backward were under the auspices of Reaganomics. I maintain that the electorate has changed. The Tea Party is not going to take over.
The coalition that elected Obama TWICE is intact. Increasingly white working class is looking favorably upon Unions. That means Democratic votes.
Reaganomics bit the dust in the collapse of 2008 and in Obama's election (TWICE!). The GOP has become entirely dysfunctional and is giving up power kicking and screaming and throwing huge tantrums which will only result in further losses in 2014 and 2016.
President Hillary. Hillary is not going to sign off on the dismantling of civil rights gains.
We don't need to use scare tactics. We can say, vote Democratic because we're moving again! Obama did some, now let's do more, let's move forward again, and not let reaganomics teaparty nutballs back into power!
Prez Hillary may the USA be saved from such a calamity ...

She won't have a say : the W Us Supreme Court is doing the job ; Florida Jim Crow is very effective etc.

Plus with a Boehner Congress the next prez will merely have his veto right.
With the disenfranchisement laws that the Reps are passing in the states, the House will stay "red".

Even the watered down Obamacare is not effective today ...

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#2938
Aug 29, 2013
 

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attai1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Prez Hillary may the USA be saved from such a calamity ...
She won't have a say : the W Us Supreme Court is doing the job ; Florida Jim Crow is very effective etc.
Plus with a Boehner Congress the next prez will merely have his veto right.
With the disenfranchisement laws that the Reps are passing in the states, the House will stay "red".
Even the watered down Obamacare is not effective today ...
a whiteboi
As with all your politics, your view of the USA is naive at best, and full of stereotypes.

What candidate is likely to win but Hillary? There is nobody else. You would prefer Rand Paul, perhaps? Pendejo...

Hillary is further to the left than Bill. In recent years all we've had for Democrats were Bill Clinton and Obama. Both could be considered right of center.

Hillary is far better than any alternative, plus she's half French (Québecoise), plus she supports freedom and human rights, and so therefore is a strong Israel supporter.

Hillary will be far better at standing up to the Republicans than Obama has been.

I wonder if she'll make Bill Secretary of State...

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#2939
Aug 29, 2013
 
Sinajuavi wrote:
<quoted text>
As with all your politics, your view of the USA is naive at best, and full of stereotypes.
What candidate is likely to win but Hillary? There is nobody else. You would prefer Rand Paul, perhaps? Pendejo...
Hillary is further to the left than Bill. In recent years all we've had for Democrats were Bill Clinton and Obama. Both could be considered right of center.
Hillary is far better than any alternative, plus she's half French (Québecoise), plus she supports freedom and human rights, and so therefore is a strong Israel supporter.
Hillary will be far better at standing up to the Republicans than Obama has been.
I wonder if she'll make Bill Secretary of State...
She is certainly the favorite of Aipac plus some d*mmy Rep mad Zionist candidates that would have Tel Aviv capital of the USA.

Her tenure as secretary of State has not been exactly a success ... so Mrs Lagaffe secretary as Mrs Prez ?
To me she is much more a capitalist puppet than the others. Hillary the Soviet girl ? LOL Barros sometimes you are so lost that is really funny.

Hillary was already "the" Dem nominee in 2008 and ... a little senator finally won. So wait and see.

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#2940
Aug 29, 2013
 

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attai1 wrote:
<quoted text>
She is certainly the favorite of Aipac plus some d*mmy Rep mad Zionist candidates that would have Tel Aviv capital of the USA.
Her tenure as secretary of State has not been exactly a success ... so Mrs Lagaffe secretary as Mrs Prez ?
To me she is much more a capitalist puppet than the others. Hillary the Soviet girl ? LOL Barros sometimes you are so lost that is really funny.
Hillary was already "the" Dem nominee in 2008 and ... a little senator finally won. So wait and see.
a whiteboi
The capital of Israel is Jerusalem, vichyboi, and always will be. Fils de Petain.

Yes, Hillary's work as Secy of State was impeccable. They can't touch her and they know it. Hence the fake Benghazi scandal created by republicans knowing they can't beat her in 2016.

Is Obama not a capitalist puppet? You are truly stupid, boy.

Hillary was run over by the “let's have a black President” excitement of the Democrats who forgot we haven't yet had a woman President either. Hillary would have kicked GOP ass... Obama is a wimp who lets the Republiklan walk all over him.

We'll be better off with Hillary.

As for Israel... LOL!!! Kerry is giving the Palestinazis yet another chance to prove they're all a bunch of Jew-hating bastards who care nothing about anything but killing Jews and destroying Israel. Good.

The W Bank is Israeli territory. Don't like it? Get out. There's a Palestinazi state waiting for you... called Jordan. Go free it from the Arabian Hashemite fascists.

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#2941
Aug 29, 2013
 

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Sinajuavi wrote:
<quoted text>
It's not happening. The steps backward were under the auspices of Reaganomics. I maintain that the electorate has changed. The Tea Party is not going to take over.
The coalition that elected Obama TWICE is intact. Increasingly white working class is looking favorably upon Unions. That means Democratic votes.
Reaganomics bit the dust in the collapse of 2008 and in Obama's election (TWICE!). The GOP has become entirely dysfunctional and is giving up power kicking and screaming and throwing huge tantrums which will only result in further losses in 2014 and 2016.
President Hillary. Hillary is not going to sign off on the dismantling of civil rights gains.
We don't need to use scare tactics. We can say, vote Democratic because we're moving again! Obama did some, now let's do more, let's move forward again, and not let reaganomics teaparty nutballs back into power!
I hope you're right. But that Supine Court decision regarding the Voting Rights Act, and the speeding up of right wing efforts to suppress black and brown ballots , is troubling. Is it a last hurrah for the right, or the beginnings of a dangerous regression.
At any rate, I'm determined NOT TO GO BACK. No way!

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#2942
Aug 29, 2013
 
Savant wrote:
<quoted text>
I hope you're right. But that Supine Court decision regarding the Voting Rights Act, and the speeding up of right wing efforts to suppress black and brown ballots , is troubling. Is it a last hurrah for the right, or the beginnings of a dangerous regression.
At any rate, I'm determined NOT TO GO BACK. No way!
I don't think the right has any intention of going back to Jim Crow or anything like it, not legally.

What they're doing is attempting to disenfranchise voting blocs which vote Democratic, and the #1 Democratic voting ethnic group in the USA is AA's.

I'd say it's more of a last hurrah, but while we will likely not see civil rights gains eroded appreciably, we will see the condition and rights of all workers continue to be trashed in the name of corporate hegemony.

The entire middle class is under seige from corporations and their lackey government. The response has to be unified. They would like to make black people THINK that the system is after them, but that is only part of the truth. They're after all of us.

Blacks don't want to go back... but look at the state of today's worker.“At-will” employment, crappy health care if any, abusive work conditions, speed-up, Union busting... all of this has gone on since Reagan but there's been little solidarity between white and black workers.

Far more has been taken back from the USA worker generally than from black people specifically. And that will continue if we do not have some unity to fight back, and I don't mean complacency when we elect another Democrat, as if any Democratic politician will help us if we don't FORCE them to!

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#2943
Aug 29, 2013
 

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Sinajuavi wrote:
Hillary is far better than any alternative, plus she's half French (Québecoise), plus she supports freedom and human rights, and so therefore is a strong Israel supporter.
Hillary, freedom and human rights?

smh...

Oh, and she supports Israel. That's the most important thing in the world: Israel. Much more important than the nation you live in. Some Americans are really the dumbest clowns in the world, it's unbelievable. I don't mean to offend normal and decent Americans, but it is what it is.

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#2944
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Savant wrote:
<quoted text>From what little I've read about Generation Identitaire, it seems to be an extreme right wing form of French nationalism, fascistic and racist as well. Some of its leaders have connections, or at least a past history in the National Front.
Perhaps, Walter Hendrickson sees French fascism and racism as representative of "true" French culture.
Generation Identitaire wants to SAVE true French culture, unlike your ethno-masochist "boi" attai1. They don't want the rest of France to become like Marseille is today or worse. There is a reason why they make a point to celebrate Charles Martel.

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#2945
Aug 29, 2013
 

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Walls of Jericho wrote:
<quoted text>
Hillary, freedom and human rights?
smh...
Oh, and she supports Israel. That's the most important thing in the world: Israel. Much more important than the nation you live in. Some Americans are really the dumbest clowns in the world, it's unbelievable. I don't mean to offend normal and decent Americans, but it is what it is.
Yes, Israel is one of the world's most advanced nations in many ways. Their social system is admirable, and should be copied by the USA. Israel has a level of human and civil rights unparalleled in most countries, and certainly by no Muslim country.

Anyone, Yank or otherwise, who supports Israel can be glad to be counted among the more ethical and moral people on earth. We Zionists are the best.

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#2946
Aug 30, 2013
 
Walter Henrickson wrote:
<quoted text>
Generation Identitaire wants to SAVE true French culture, unlike your ethno-masochist "boi" attai1. They don't want the rest of France to become like Marseille is today or worse. There is a reason why they make a point to celebrate Charles Martel.
Marseille has always been a nest for mafiosi and crime : it's the French Chicago already before 1900, nothing new. The famous drug "French connection" in the 1970's dealing with the US mafia was based in Marseille.
Besides all those in control in Marseille and the region are white ; both from the most corrupt section of the Socialist party - some are indicted - and of the UMP the right-wing party.

As for "true French culture", it has ALWAYS been opposed to Xenophobia except from 1940 to 1944 with the semi-fascist Vichy regime under nazi occupation.
Even before 1789 there was no Xenophobia.

So a Xenophobic group like Génération identitaire is in fact ... anti-French.

I see that poor Sinful Barros is going completely crazy : he is maybe a spy of the Mossad ?

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#2947
Aug 30, 2013
 
Walter Henrickson wrote:
<quoted text>
Generation Identitaire wants to SAVE true French culture, unlike your ethno-masochist "boi" attai1. They don't want the rest of France to become like Marseille is today or worse. There is a reason why they make a point to celebrate Charles Martel.
Very often this talk of "saving" the national culture from foreign influence is really the rhetoric of far right nationalists and racists. The celebrating of Charles Martell could very well be akin, in its real essence, to Italy's celebration of the Caesars or Roman empire under Mussolini, or Germany's celebration of Teutonic knights in Hitler's Germany.
Culture grows, evolves and changes--indeed must do so if it is the remain alive. Historically, a part of that growth has commonly involved contact and with other cultures. Perhaps a "true" French culture will be one which integrates the contributions of people who come from outside France, including people from Third World countries.
The same goes for the USA as well.

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#2948
Aug 30, 2013
 
Sinajuavi wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't think the right has any intention of going back to Jim Crow or anything like it, not legally.
What they're doing is attempting to disenfranchise voting blocs which vote Democratic, and the #1 Democratic voting ethnic group in the USA is AA's.
I'd say it's more of a last hurrah, but while we will likely not see civil rights gains eroded appreciably, we will see the condition and rights of all workers continue to be trashed in the name of corporate hegemony.
The entire middle class is under seige from corporations and their lackey government. The response has to be unified. They would like to make black people THINK that the system is after them, but that is only part of the truth. They're after all of us.
Blacks don't want to go back... but look at the state of today's worker.“At-will” employment, crappy health care if any, abusive work conditions, speed-up, Union busting... all of this has gone on since Reagan but there's been little solidarity between white and black workers.
Far more has been taken back from the USA worker generally than from black people specifically. And that will continue if we do not have some unity to fight back, and I don't mean complacency when we elect another Democrat, as if any Democratic politician will help us if we don't FORCE them to!
Michele Alexander notes in THE NEW JIM CROW that the purpose of the OLD Jim Crow was a system of exploitaiton and racial domination establishing as much as possible slavery or slave-like relations in new forms. Reactionaries COULD NOT restore the South exactly as it was before the Civii War, but they could reestablish racial caste in new forms.
The danger, I fear, is not the re-establishing of Jim Crow in its ORIGINAL forms, but in new forms, and with new laws to expedite the process. With regard to the right of the ballot, I think that TODAY'S Republicans are playing a role comparable to the Dixiecrats of old. It was partly to maintain racist, plutocratic Dixiecrat poliical dominance in the South, that Dems did all manner of shennanigans to deprive Blacks of the Ballot. The Republicans were the party of Lincoln and Emancipation, and a party which appealed to many white working people as well--suggesting a DANGEROUS ALLIANCE. Since Barry Goldwater, the Republicans, now the most reactionary of the two parties, want to disfranchise Blacks and Hispanics--groups for whom the Dems became the party of FDR (with millions of working class whites), and of Civil Rights since the time of King during the Kenndy and Johnson administrations. If they can't fall back on "grandfather clauses" they will resort to new, unnecessary ID requirements, curbing or eliminating early voting, and other measures. The prison industrial complex, as both Michelle Alexander and Angela Y. Davis notes, are also part of the process for re-establishing racial caste in new forms. And is it mere coincidence that repressive laws against labor and agains women--practices once especiallly common amongst Dems, are now the favorite tactics of the Republicans. The reactionaries have swithced their labels. But how does that French saying go? "Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose."

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#2949
Aug 30, 2013
 
attai1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Marseille has always been a nest for mafiosi and crime : it's the French Chicago already before 1900, nothing new. The famous drug "French connection" in the 1970's dealing with the US mafia was based in Marseille.
Besides all those in control in Marseille and the region are white ; both from the most corrupt section of the Socialist party - some are indicted - and of the UMP the right-wing party.
As for "true French culture", it has ALWAYS been opposed to Xenophobia except from 1940 to 1944 with the semi-fascist Vichy regime under nazi occupation.
Even before 1789 there was no Xenophobia.
So a Xenophobic group like Génération identitaire is in fact ... anti-French.
I see that poor Sinful Barros is going completely crazy : he is maybe a spy of the Mossad ?
a whiteboi
I've never been more sane, boy.

No xenophobia in France? Well, through Medieval times Europe had a common language (Latin), and the disputes were between the nobility, without real ethnic animus.

Would the genocide of Cathars be considered xenophobic? Perhaps not... since they were not outsiders to France... or back then maybe they were. They spoke a different language...

In any case, let's discuss only Muz. Was Charles Martel xenophobic? Then was de Gaulle for fighting against the Nazis?

Well, vichyboi, if I'm Mossad, then you're in deep $hit, ain't ya, boy?

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#2950
Aug 30, 2013
 
Savant wrote:
<quoted text>
Very often this talk of "saving" the national culture from foreign influence is really the rhetoric of far right nationalists and racists. The celebrating of Charles Martell could very well be akin, in its real essence, to Italy's celebration of the Caesars or Roman empire under Mussolini, or Germany's celebration of Teutonic knights in Hitler's Germany.
Culture grows, evolves and changes--indeed must do so if it is the remain alive. Historically, a part of that growth has commonly involved contact and with other cultures. Perhaps a "true" French culture will be one which integrates the contributions of people who come from outside France, including people from Third World countries.
The same goes for the USA as well.
This is an oversimplified view of history. The Soviets making propaganda films of the people of Novgorod standing against the Goths... to inspire the Soviet people to stand against the Nazis... was this far-right nationalism? Or legitimate patriotism?

When Mexican marching for farmworker rights chant ¡Viva Zapata!, is that far-right nationalism?

If black Yanks marched, carrying before them a picture of Dr. King, would that be far-right nationalism?

Well you get the point.

Well, French culture has been historically enriched by foreign influences. Gauguin's art was inspired by that of Polynesia, Matisse's by that of the Maghreb.

But jihadis praying in the streets? Demanding shari'a? Attacking and murdering random Jewish children?

This Islamocrap is enriching nobody. France is NOT improved by ANY islamification.

Couscous, yes. Islam, no.

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#2951
Aug 30, 2013
 
Savant wrote:
<quoted text>Michele Alexander notes in THE NEW JIM CROW that the purpose of the OLD Jim Crow was a system of exploitaiton and racial domination establishing as much as possible slavery or slave-like relations in new forms. Reactionaries COULD NOT restore the South exactly as it was before the Civii War, but they could reestablish racial caste in new forms.
The danger, I fear, is not the re-establishing of Jim Crow in its ORIGINAL forms, but in new forms, and with new laws to expedite the process. With regard to the right of the ballot, I think that TODAY'S Republicans are playing a role comparable to the Dixiecrats of old. It was partly to maintain racist, plutocratic Dixiecrat poliical dominance in the South, that Dems did all manner of shennanigans to deprive Blacks of the Ballot. The Republicans were the party of Lincoln and Emancipation, and a party which appealed to many white working people as well--suggesting a DANGEROUS ALLIANCE. Since Barry Goldwater, the Republicans, now the most reactionary of the two parties, want to disfranchise Blacks and Hispanics--groups for whom the Dems became the party of FDR (with millions of working class whites), and of Civil Rights since the time of King during the Kenndy and Johnson administrations. If they can't fall back on "grandfather clauses" they will resort to new, unnecessary ID requirements, curbing or eliminating early voting, and other measures. The prison industrial complex, as both Michelle Alexander and Angela Y. Davis notes, are also part of the process for re-establishing racial caste in new forms. And is it mere coincidence that repressive laws against labor and agains women--practices once especiallly common amongst Dems, are now the favorite tactics of the Republicans. The reactionaries have swithced their labels. But how does that French saying go? "Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose."
I realize that if you're black it might be hard to imagine that the motive of the ultimate rulers is not to keep black people down, per se, but that is the truth.

Oh they'll keep you down as they can. I mean, you're right, they will find fancy new ways to disenfranchise black voters, and so on.

But look at the big picture. What was the role of most of the ancestors of USA white people? They were virtual slaves in Europe. One historian asserted that most of the population of France were slaves until 1789.

But look how well white workers have done historically in the USA, thanks to the labor movement! Do you think the rulers are happy with that? Look how they've busted the middle class since Reaganomics was implemented. Look at the condition of white Yanks today. The rulers are pushing them down along with blacks.

SOLIDARITY is my point. That is what we need. A white worker with his kids on meth, underemployed and NOBODY supporting his issues is not likely to respond to a call to end some nebulously-defined “new Jim Crow” against black people. But, if, as Dr. King was doing when he was assassinated, we make clear connection between the situation of all workers, black, white and other, then we've got a chance at the solidarity we MUST have in order to succeed.

Et oui... c'est la même chose comme d'habitude... le FÉODALISME!!!

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#2952
Aug 30, 2013
 

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attai1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Marseille has always been a nest for mafiosi and crime : it's the French Chicago already before 1900, nothing new. The famous drug "French connection" in the 1970's dealing with the US mafia was based in Marseille.
Besides all those in control in Marseille and the region are white ; both from the most corrupt section of the Socialist party - some are indicted - and of the UMP the right-wing party.
As for "true French culture", it has ALWAYS been opposed to Xenophobia except from 1940 to 1944 with the semi-fascist Vichy regime under nazi occupation.
Even before 1789 there was no Xenophobia.
So a Xenophobic group like Génération identitaire is in fact ... anti-French.
I see that poor Sinful Barros is going completely crazy : he is maybe a spy of the Mossad ?
a whiteboi
You're anti-French, vichyboi.

You're a traitor.

ISLAM is anti-French. The goal of Islam is to destroy the culture of every people on earth.

Keep in your mind the video of those Buddhist statues in Afghanistan being destroyed.

That is what they will do to the LOUVRE, you idiot.

The Sorbonne a madrasa? Is that what you want, boy?

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#2953
Aug 30, 2013
 
Savant wrote:
<quoted text>
Very often this talk of "saving" the national culture from foreign influence is really the rhetoric of far right nationalists and racists. The celebrating of Charles Martell could very well be akin, in its real essence, to Italy's celebration of the Caesars or Roman empire under Mussolini, or Germany's celebration of Teutonic knights in Hitler's Germany.
Culture grows, evolves and changes--indeed must do so if it is the remain alive. Historically, a part of that growth has commonly involved contact and with other cultures. Perhaps a "true" French culture will be one which integrates the contributions of people who come from outside France, including people from Third World countries.
The same goes for the USA as well.
Good definition sir especially valid for the French history, values and culture which have always been diverse and open to integrate new trends.

In the XVIth French kings hired Italian artists : it's funny that the arch-typical painting, the most famous in the world stored in Le Louvre museum, is Mona Lisa La Joconde and so an Italian painting.
Chopin is both Polish and French ; our literature is absorbing all kinds of foreign influences.

Without African art of statues you do not have Picasso who was born btw a Spaniard at the start. The way jazz music became popular in post WWI France just by the contact with American Black soldiers is impressive.

Our genuine art and a decisive part of French life is cooking, great "cuisine". It's also unbelievable how diverse is French cooking, how we have assimilated a lot of foreign products, foreign dishes : Maghreb "couscous" (the full dish not just the cereal) is common in French families.

French language is like English : full of foreign words and for ex. several words and expressions have been taken to the Arabs during the Crusades.
For ex. nearly all French people understand what "flous" or "kif kif" mean.

French culture also like the American has always pursued the foolish idea of being universal. So a Xenophobic France is a moronic concept, a foreign concept that is anti-French radically.

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#2954
Aug 30, 2013
 
Sinajuavi wrote:
<quoted text>
I realize that if you're black it might be hard to imagine that the motive of the ultimate rulers is not to keep black people down, per se, but that is the truth.
Oh they'll keep you down as they can. I mean, you're right, they will find fancy new ways to disenfranchise black voters, and so on.
But look at the big picture. What was the role of most of the ancestors of USA white people? They were virtual slaves in Europe. One historian asserted that most of the population of France were slaves until 1789.
But look how well white workers have done historically in the USA, thanks to the labor movement! Do you think the rulers are happy with that? Look how they've busted the middle class since Reaganomics was implemented. Look at the condition of white Yanks today. The rulers are pushing them down along with blacks.
SOLIDARITY is my point. That is what we need. A white worker with his kids on meth, underemployed and NOBODY supporting his issues is not likely to respond to a call to end some nebulously-defined “new Jim Crow” against black people. But, if, as Dr. King was doing when he was assassinated, we make clear connection between the situation of all workers, black, white and other, then we've got a chance at the solidarity we MUST have in order to succeed.
Et oui... c'est la même chose comme d'habitude... le FÉODALISME!!!
Delusional as usual. Naive as usual.

"If you're Black" : everything is in these few words.
But neither you Sinajuavi nor me are Black persons.

That is the BIG difference between we and sir Savant and all Black posters.

80% of American whites are happy with the present state of the race question in the USA ; i bet we will have the same percentage in the E.U. if not bigger.

Conscious white people that know this representation is an illusion, worse a matrix, are a minority though we exist.

Others are still living in a Magician of Oz movie ... the movie will have an end.

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#2955
Aug 30, 2013
 
Sinajuavi wrote:
<quoted text>
This is an oversimplified view of history. The Soviets making propaganda films of the people of Novgorod standing against the Goths... to inspire the Soviet people to stand against the Nazis... was this far-right nationalism? Or legitimate patriotism?
When Mexican marching for farmworker rights chant ¡Viva Zapata!, is that far-right nationalism?
If black Yanks marched, carrying before them a picture of Dr. King, would that be far-right nationalism?
Well you get the point.
Well, French culture has been historically enriched by foreign influences. Gauguin's art was inspired by that of Polynesia, Matisse's by that of the Maghreb.
But jihadis praying in the streets? Demanding shari'a? Attacking and murdering random Jewish children?
This Islamocrap is enriching nobody. France is NOT improved by ANY islamification.
Couscous, yes. Islam, no.
Well now, some LEFT critiques of Stalin do suggest that he did at times appealed to the kind of reactionary nationalism and (under a different rationale) as was promoted in Czarist times. He is said to have appealed (implicitly, not so overtly as in czarist times)to antisemitism as well.
If "generation identitaire" were a progessive group, wouldn't they more likely choose symbols from La Resistance? Or mayve even symbols of Revolutionary resistance of 1789?
African Americans carrying signs of MLK is certainly not right wing nationalism. Signs of Elijah Muhammad is a different matter.
It depends on what the Charles Martel symbolism means. If it is a throwback to the old Christian vs Muslim religious wars of the middle ages, I coubt that this is progressive.
As for Islam? Well, I will let you religionists engage in the sterile arguments of which religion is better or worst than the other. But in this matter, if I were going to choose a French symbolism, it might be Voltaire. Or closer to home, Tom Paine.

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