perceptions of black men as thugs
KIP

San Francisco, CA

#152 Jun 21, 2013
Cogito2 wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL! Kip you are an unconscious narcissist! This concept is not all about the Kipster! It's about people feeling compelled to surrender certain aspects of their cultural that goes beyond PROFESSIONALISM in order to be accepted into certain cultural environments. It's about people assuming me to be a THUG until I disabuse them of this notion....but WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO?
And where did you get the notion that I deduced that you grew up in a poor black neighbor: which only offers me more insight into your thought process. Because all black neighborhoods are NOT POOR. And I only introduced mine into the discussion to provide contextual relevancy and authenticity.
Let's flip the scrip for a second because now, you are trying to conflate professionalism with this concept of "blending in" when they are in fact, distinct in form. If a Jewish person were to tell you they feel some sense of responsibility of appeasement to adjust and fit end around blacks, would you declare them racially paranoid? To what would you ascribe their co-opting the usage of the urban lexicon?
Example: A great many of agents, accountants etc., of professional athletes and musicians are JEWS. And they almost to a letter, have acquired a familiarity with the Afrocentric customs, mannerism and lexicon in order to BLEND IN and to adopt these black athletes and entertainments. Now me, I personally find it condescending because some of these Jews take it to the extreme where it's almost mockery. This is the same concept, but in reverse; only with the distinction being that implications of blacks failing to do so with in the minority tends to have a greater consequences professionally.
What specific cultural apsects are you saying you have had to give up? I recall cutting my dreadlocks after college, because I had a job interview at an investment firm. For me having dreadlocks wasn't as important as landing a good job and moving on. There is a time and place for everything and for everyone. Yes, people might assume you're a thug. They might not. I unconsciously make assumptions about people too, so I try to keep that perspective. We're all human and we just don't know until we know. It's a shame if you're in a reputable environment and people are still expecting you to be a thug. That says a lot about THEM.

Level 7

Since: Jan 12

Location hidden

#153 Jun 21, 2013
Spock Adams Mathers wrote:
<quoted text>
He's got points though. Why don't you address them. We would like tohear your explanations.
I will when he sends me that post card from therapy.
KIP

San Francisco, CA

#154 Jun 21, 2013
berriesgalore wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes but just because you had something at one time doesn't mean you will always have it. Black isn't just a race. Black is also culture made up of our surroundings (environment).
Your stance on work ethics and confirming etc I pretty much undertand and agree with...however, when you speak of the black culture, which is much more specific and not as general as a work ethic...who you are with in terms of marriage becomes fair play. It lends to credibility and qualified you really are to speak on something you are not a part of.
Really?

Well who are YOU with?
How do they vote and what religion do they practice?
What do they eat and who are their friends?
What music does she/he listen to?
What clothes do they wear and what do they do for entertainment?
Is their skin light? If so, HOW light?
Do they wear natural hair?

If we are going to make being black a club, then perhaps we should set down some standards that all members must follow. How should I know how credible YOU are?
KIP

San Francisco, CA

#155 Jun 21, 2013
Isn't it ironic?

People come here to complain about having to "blend in" at work, but are the absolute FIRST to invalidate someone else black for not being in line with their particular standard for being Black.

It gets interesting.

“No Substitute For The Truth”

Level 8

Since: Jan 10

Orlando, FL

#156 Jun 21, 2013
KIP wrote:
<quoted text>
Not everything in African American culture has been demonized. There are a lot of images of hope, warmth, and reliability that Blacks still emanate. Understand your own history, people and culture before lashing out at me. Unlike you I NEVER feel ashamed for the differences. I just don't have as much sympathy for the sob stories. The, "they hate me because ... I've been having to conform for 400 years, blah, blah,blah, and so on. That doesn't work anymore.
Yes, people from India face negative stereotypes just like everyone else. The world doesn't center around black stereotypes. We are not the only people on the planet who have had to endure hardships.
I'm NOT saying there isn't any images of hope, warmth, and reliability, plenty of them exist BUT these images are rarely associated with African American Culture & aesthetics. These images instead have been substituted for 'Minstrel Shows'. This has always been a gross inaccurate representation of African American Culture & aesthetics.

Yes Immigrants have similar issues regarding their own Culture in America BUT the difference is their Culture was NEVER infiltrated like African American Culture has been in The USA. They've NEVER went through integration like African Americans. So you cannot compare Immigrants in The US to African Americans. It's like someone trying to compare gay rights to civil rights which I'm sure you see no difference hence ur attitude on how everyone endure hardships. Obviously we all haven't dealt with the same kinda hardships. Unlike you I understand some of us face greater obstacles than others.

Level 7

Since: Jan 12

Location hidden

#157 Jun 21, 2013
berriesgalore wrote:
<quoted text>
Aren't you kinda denying the game exists (and has a clear cut winner) by stating this:
"but has everything to do with whites consciously and unconsciously expecting us to conform to what they perceive to be the NORM"
Are you denying there is a NORM and that this NORM was by and large established by the majority group?
The games exist wherever and with whomever social, economic or political power is concentrated. This NORM you refer to is a STANDARD PROFESSIONALISM which I have already conceded several times, as perfectly within reasonable boundaries.

What I am referencing goes beyond this professional standard and morphs into the seeds of CRONYISM, NEPOTISM, SEXISM AND RACISM. If you make the argument that people achieve advancement because of cronyism, nepotism, or sexism, which all evolves around some shared LIKENESS, then it is a logical deduction in progressive reasoning that people are excluded and restricted from these very same advancemenst because they are antithetical in LIKENESS or composition.

I know for a fact that Jews often make decisions about personnel based on one's JEWISHNESS, which is a common belief system. And any non jewish person within this non religious, professional fold will still have to demonstrate some awareness of the JEWISH social paradigm even if it not related to the job itself. So, it is also the case with other ethnicities.

So yes, majority rules and majority favors those who closely resembles and flatters them culturally in LIKENESS whether this takes place consciously or unconsciously. But the game definitely exist!

Level 7

Since: Jan 12

Location hidden

#158 Jun 21, 2013
KIP wrote:
<quoted text>
What specific cultural apsects are you saying you have had to give up? I recall cutting my dreadlocks after college, because I had a job interview at an investment firm. For me having dreadlocks wasn't as important as landing a good job and moving on. There is a time and place for everything and for everyone. Yes, people might assume you're a thug. They might not. I unconsciously make assumptions about people too, so I try to keep that perspective. We're all human and we just don't know until we know. It's a shame if you're in a reputable environment and people are still expecting you to be a thug. That says a lot about THEM.
I do agree Kip that making assumptions about someone based on their group affiliations is part of the human condition which we all are guilty of doing. The hair thing is actually a good example: you and I both may decide that afrocentric dreads are inappropriate for US in the professional work environment even though it has nothing to do with our job, but where this example resonates more powerfully is with the SISTERS.

There have been many situations and cases that were litigated because of this expected concession of black women. Specifically, the variety of hairstyles that black women wear are at times rebuffed because of their dissimilarity to the Eurocentric norm: this of course, is a likeness in the physical form.

Mode of behavior, speech are also apt illustrations: I have been told myself, though I am about as phenotypically Negro as one can be, in the work place that I am not like THEM based on what they perceive to be my non urban inflection of speech and was always quizzed about where I was from and favoritism was shown to me because of it.

I conversely witnessed others blacks who were more skilled and productive than myself, but did ostensibly have somewhat of an urban inflection of speech struggle in their ascension even though, as I stated, outperformed me.

We are judged in the work place by those in power, by their levels of comfort with us, even though this may not always be related to our productivity. And because I had early exposure to whites as a culture; as opposed to some brothers who did not, I understood their cultural nuances better and was regarded as LIKABLE.

So, while a lot of this may not be nefarious by design, and may simply be a part of the human condition to some extent; but can be a part of conscious contrived calculations in other instances, it is nevertheless; a variable in the equation. This is not theoretical for me, but empirical.

Level 7

Since: Jul 08

Location hidden

#159 Jun 21, 2013
Cogito2 wrote:
<quoted text>You are entitled to your beliefs, as am I and he; however, none of us are immune to being judge, fairly or unfairly. My observation of Kip's views and positions are deduced from his body of post here, not simply the ones on this particular thread. And I most definitely beg to differ in regards to your expressed beliefs that other groups simply "just get work for the betterment" while we tar and feathers ours. There is most certainly harsh judgments and punitive social and at times, economic consequences for those who are non conformist to the tenets of their respective groups. You are being somewhat idealistic here.

And once again, you are entitled to your perceptions but Kip doesn't merely highlight our collective deficits, he condemns them in a vacuum while conveniently ignoring CAUSE AND EFFECT, yet he gives every such consideration when he observes and judges others. I also have personal standards that has nothing to do with what is expected of me, but nonetheless, judgments of me, because of my blackness are made by others without knowing whether my standards are below, equal or exceeding theirs, so this is not the crux of this discussion.

And maybe your professional ascension has been unfettered by any such demands, as it can be in some cases, but to collectively deny the empirical experiences of those who have experienced this tacit, or otherwise expressed demand; and to attribute it to racial paranoid is a stretch on your and his part. You may personally attest that it has never been the case with you; but your heresy testimony is inadmissible on anyone else's behalf.
I think you misread part of my post...perhaps that is my error in expression. Collectively, we blacks are judged more harshly than other groups. There isn't a shred of doubt in my mind.

Professionally, I have not been told or even had it suggested to me that I had to conform in some manner but I have experienced something far more insidious: the perception of being somehow less competent due to my race...never anything directly said but I'm sure you can imagine the treatment. Of course, that tended to backfire on my opponents in really embarrassing ways until people got to know me. I still chuckle about those days.

I've read Kip's posts collectively as well. I just have a different read on them. I Respect your opinion though.

Level 7

Since: Jul 08

Location hidden

#160 Jun 21, 2013
Cassius Chaerea wrote:
<quoted text>Yes we know. We see the crime rates, prison populations and out of wedlock birth rates. Congratulations.
See your way out, please. Thank you.

Level 7

Since: Jan 12

Location hidden

#161 Jun 21, 2013
DerekJ wrote:
<quoted text>
I think you misread part of my post...perhaps that is my error in expression. Collectively, we blacks are judged more harshly than other groups. There isn't a shred of doubt in my mind.
Professionally, I have not been told or even had it suggested to me that I had to conform in some manner but I have experienced something far more insidious: the perception of being somehow less competent due to my race...never anything directly said but I'm sure you can imagine the treatment. Of course, that tended to backfire on my opponents in really embarrassing ways until people got to know me. I still chuckle about those days.
I've read Kip's posts collectively as well. I just have a different read on them. I Respect your opinion though.
Let the record reflect that I hear and understand your point as well. Perceptions and learned predispositions are part of the equations in our personal and professional lives. I can personally attest as well to having to prove my competency double that of somewhat who looks the part (whatever that means).

And though I make this argument, I actually am not overly racially sensitive because I have learned that people are manifestations of their group conditioning and will draw references from their own limited empirical experiences; not to mention, what people think and say is about them and less about me. Besides, I have always found it beneficial to be intellectually underestimated.

“dreams”

Level 2

Since: Jun 13

Location hidden

#162 Jun 21, 2013
KIP wrote:
<quoted text>
Really?
Well who are YOU with?
How do they vote and what religion do they practice?
What do they eat and who are their friends?
What music does she/he listen to?
What clothes do they wear and what do they do for entertainment?
Is their skin light? If so, HOW light?
Do they wear natural hair?
If we are going to make being black a club, then perhaps we should set down some standards that all members must follow. How should I know how credible YOU are?
Yes, really.

When you are choosing to criticize a group of people, who you are is absolutely relevant. Do you take criticisms from the KKK seriously?

Somethings are simply absolute. Such as walking or standing, in the game or out the game, pregnancy or not pregnant, alive or dead. You don't always get the luxury of fence sitting nor fence riding. Sometime you simply have to pick a side and that's where you are .....forever.

You've admitted more than once that you rarely see blacks where you live. You've stated in this thread that you see other groups up men going to work but it's rare for you to see bm. In fact, you've said, you don't see black men in the morning...but if you go to "black" areas, they are there standing on the corner and drinking. You've also admitted that when you go to the library and other group events with your son, you rarely see black women there, although you admit your demographic isn't heavily populated with blacks. In fact, up until recently your area had an extremely low concentrated of other groups besides the majority.

So, you've all but said the reasons you are a non credible source for "blackness" and given the information you've provided about yourself and your life, further explained why you are not qualified to speak on a community and people you are not even around nor have many dealings with in your day to day life.

“dreams”

Level 2

Since: Jun 13

Location hidden

#163 Jun 21, 2013
KIP wrote:
Isn't it ironic?
People come here to complain about having to "blend in" at work, but are the absolute FIRST to invalidate someone else black for not being in line with their particular standard for being Black.
It gets interesting.
I agree with conformance. Jobs can't have everyone coming in and simply doing whatever they want to do. Not even owners of companies and entities simply get to do and say whatever they want and any given time. Just ask Paula Dean...there must be a standard and I don't blame any business owner for withholding those standards and telling those who don't agree to let the doorknob hit them where the good lord split them.

However, conformity has as much to do with race as those complaining that it has something to do with race. So it's not about being black or purple. Conformity is simply a universal rule.
KIP

San Francisco, CA

#164 Jun 21, 2013
berriesgalore wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, really.
When you are choosing to criticize a group of people, who you are is absolutely relevant. Do you take criticisms from the KKK seriously?
Somethings are simply absolute. Such as walking or standing, in the game or out the game, pregnancy or not pregnant, alive or dead. You don't always get the luxury of fence sitting nor fence riding. Sometime you simply have to pick a side and that's where you are .....forever.
You've admitted more than once that you rarely see blacks where you live. You've stated in this thread that you see other groups up men going to work but it's rare for you to see bm. In fact, you've said, you don't see black men in the morning...but if you go to "black" areas, they are there standing on the corner and drinking. You've also admitted that when you go to the library and other group events with your son, you rarely see black women there, although you admit your demographic isn't heavily populated with blacks. In fact, up until recently your area had an extremely low concentrated of other groups besides the majority.
So, you've all but said the reasons you are a non credible source for "blackness" and given the information you've provided about yourself and your life, further explained why you are not qualified to speak on a community and people you are not even around nor have many dealings with in your day to day life.
Did you ever stop to consider that what I admitted might be TRUE?
What if everything I said was true and I spoke out of concern?
Just because my head is not in the sand about the condition of things in some black communities doesn't disqualify me in ANY way. I'm sorry. You can play that game some place else, but it doesn't work with me. There are social problems that are EVIDENT. Somehow I'm supposed to act as if they don't bother me? That they don't exist?

Try again.
KIP

San Francisco, CA

#165 Jun 21, 2013
Cogito2 wrote:
<quoted text>
I do agree Kip that making assumptions about someone based on their group affiliations is part of the human condition which we all are guilty of doing. The hair thing is actually a good example: you and I both may decide that afrocentric dreads are inappropriate for US in the professional work environment even though it has nothing to do with our job, but where this example resonates more powerfully is with the SISTERS.
There have been many situations and cases that were litigated because of this expected concession of black women. Specifically, the variety of hairstyles that black women wear are at times rebuffed because of their dissimilarity to the Eurocentric norm: this of course, is a likeness in the physical form.
Mode of behavior, speech are also apt illustrations: I have been told myself, though I am about as phenotypically Negro as one can be, in the work place that I am not like THEM based on what they perceive to be my non urban inflection of speech and was always quizzed about where I was from and favoritism was shown to me because of it.
I conversely witnessed others blacks who were more skilled and productive than myself, but did ostensibly have somewhat of an urban inflection of speech struggle in their ascension even though, as I stated, outperformed me.
We are judged in the work place by those in power, by their levels of comfort with us, even though this may not always be related to our productivity. And because I had early exposure to whites as a culture; as opposed to some brothers who did not, I understood their cultural nuances better and was regarded as LIKABLE.
So, while a lot of this may not be nefarious by design, and may simply be a part of the human condition to some extent; but can be a part of conscious contrived calculations in other instances, it is nevertheless; a variable in the equation. This is not theoretical for me, but empirical.
People make associations. Often times the associations are wrong. For example, it may be inaccurate to assume that someone with dreadlocks cannot do a specific job especially when the hairstyle is associated with incompetence. At the same time, simply showing bias in favor in someone from the same cultural background or likeness does not guarantee they will have the same PRINCIPLES. Again, this involves how we make associations.

Speaking is important, because it's often associated with one's education and experience. Mode of behavior is ALWAYS important. Behavior is associated with everything, especially nowadays. Already, your own writing style has made me subconsciously re-examine your concepts. Nevertheless, we need to be careful about how me make these associations. The powers that be have had to pay a price for making associations that prove unfair.

I'm not sure I disagree with you much on that last post.

“dreams”

Level 2

Since: Jun 13

Location hidden

#166 Jun 21, 2013
KIP wrote:
<quoted text>
Did you ever stop to consider that what I admitted might be TRUE?
What if everything I said was true and I spoke out of concern?
Just because my head is not in the sand about the condition of things in some black communities doesn't disqualify me in ANY way. I'm sorry. You can play that game some place else, but it doesn't work with me. There are social problems that are EVIDENT. Somehow I'm supposed to act as if they don't bother me? That they don't exist?
Try again.
You mention sand..your logic is the equivalent of leaving your home because the electricity went out and walking over to the desert and complaining about a lack of water.

You are not aligned properly. You don't make sense (and you know it, your pride just won't let you admit this to yourself).
KIP

San Francisco, CA

#168 Jun 21, 2013
berriesgalore wrote:
<quoted text>
You mention sand..your logic is the equivalent of leaving your home because the electricity went out and walking over to the desert and complaining about a lack of water.
You are not aligned properly. You don't make sense (and you know it, your pride just won't let you admit this to yourself).
I can say the same thing about you.

Your own pride prevents you from looking at actual problems. All you do is fault the messenger for what he has seen and says. Then you qualify yourself because of the color of woman's legs you lay between.

That's ridiculous!

Level 7

Since: Jan 12

Location hidden

#169 Jun 21, 2013
Cassius Chaerea wrote:
<quoted text>
Seems that the negro male is the one with the low self esteem and feelings of inadequacy. Look at the state of the negro male. LMAO!
Sure, that's why I'm on a white site taunting like a 10 year old......opps, my bad, that's you!
KIP

San Francisco, CA

#170 Jun 21, 2013
Cassius Chaerea wrote:
<quoted text>
Seems that the negro male is the one with the low self esteem and feelings of inadequacy. Look at the state of the negro male. LMAO!
We also look at the state of common white trash.

No thank you! Being a negro does have advantages.

“dreams”

Level 2

Since: Jun 13

Location hidden

#171 Jun 21, 2013
Cogito2 wrote:
<quoted text>
The games exist wherever and with whomever social, economic or political power is concentrated. This NORM you refer to is a STANDARD PROFESSIONALISM which I have already conceded several times, as perfectly within reasonable boundaries.
What I am referencing goes beyond this professional standard and morphs into the seeds of CRONYISM, NEPOTISM, SEXISM AND RACISM. If you make the argument that people achieve advancement because of cronyism, nepotism, or sexism, which all evolves around some shared LIKENESS, then it is a logical deduction in progressive reasoning that people are excluded and restricted from these very same advancemenst because they are antithetical in LIKENESS or composition.
I know for a fact that Jews often make decisions about personnel based on one's JEWISHNESS, which is a common belief system. And any non jewish person within this non religious, professional fold will still have to demonstrate some awareness of the JEWISH social paradigm even if it not related to the job itself. So, it is also the case with other ethnicities.
So yes, majority rules and majority favors those who closely resembles and flatters them culturally in LIKENESS whether this takes place consciously or unconsciously. But the game definitely exist!
Exactly.
Cogito2 wrote:
<quoted text>
The games exist wherever and with whomever social, economic or political power is concentrated. This NORM you refer to is a STANDARD PROFESSIONALISM which I have already conceded several times, as perfectly within reasonable boundaries.
What I am referencing goes beyond this professional standard and morphs into the seeds of CRONYISM, NEPOTISM, SEXISM AND RACISM. If you make the argument that people achieve advancement because of cronyism, nepotism, or sexism, which all evolves around some shared LIKENESS, then it is a logical deduction in progressive reasoning that people are excluded and restricted from these very same advancemenst because they are antithetical in LIKENESS or composition.
I know for a fact that Jews often make decisions about personnel based on one's JEWISHNESS, which is a common belief system. And any non jewish person within this non religious, professional fold will still have to demonstrate some awareness of the JEWISH social paradigm even if it not related to the job itself. So, it is also the case with other ethnicities.
So yes, majority rules and majority favors those who closely resembles and flatters them culturally in LIKENESS whether this takes place consciously or unconsciously. But the game definitely exist!
Exactly. The game does exist and all of us are playing. The game isn't just concentrated to those on the highest social order , economic level or political level. The game exists for all ..we all are playing.

This society that we are a part of, which is indeed global as well, uses the racial hierarchy as part of the game. This means racism is part of the standard. In fact, CRONYISM, NEPOTISM, SEXISM AND RACISM all of it, are a part of the standard of this society. Because of this, we must have a rigid check and balance system in place (which we do) which CONTROLS the levels of each. They are heavily monitored and heavily tracked but they are indeed embedded in to the workings of this country..whether we like it or not. They aren't going anywhere...the best thing to do imo, is not to constantly complain about them because it's not changing.

“dreams”

Level 2

Since: Jun 13

Location hidden

#173 Jun 21, 2013
KIP wrote:
<quoted text>
I can say the same thing about you.
Your own pride prevents you from looking at actual problems.
Looking at problems is one thing. Commenting on them is where you are going wrong.
KIP wrote:
<quoted text>

All you do is fault the messenger for what he has seen and says.
The messenger is complacent. You are using information you've gained from the color of your skin to then weaponize yourself for the choices you've made. Therefore, you aren't complacent. You are a full player..not just a messenger.
KIP wrote:
<quoted text>

Then you qualify yourself because of the color of woman's legs you lay between.
That's ridiculous!
You've made another poor assumption. lol.

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