“Leading the Revolution”

Level 6

Since: Oct 09

United States

#1130 Jan 22, 2013
@Barros

As you say in your own words equivalent to slavery, but not slavery. I am familiar with the struggles of those people from Ireland,, however, they were not slaves. Did I say they weren't mistreated, no, I simply said they were not slaves. Treated as bad as slaves and being a slave are not the same thing. You're correct in the 1650's, many indentured servants were treated horribly, and some owners refused to abide by their agreed upon contracts, but they had legsl recourse. Slaves had NO rights, and few legal recourses. Now your argument only talks about a period of about forty years, or let's say about 1680 or 1690, because after that slavery begins to morphe into something even more sinister. You should check out the African In America series on PBS website.

Knowledge is power!
Barros Serrano

Reserve, NM

#1131 Jan 22, 2013
dkanela wrote:
@Barros
As you say in your own words equivalent to slavery, but not slavery. I am familiar with the struggles of those people from Ireland,, however, they were not slaves. Did I say they weren't mistreated, no, I simply said they were not slaves. Treated as bad as slaves and being a slave are not the same thing. You're correct in the 1650's, many indentured servants were treated horribly, and some owners refused to abide by their agreed upon contracts, but they had legsl recourse. Slaves had NO rights, and few legal recourses. Now your argument only talks about a period of about forty years, or let's say about 1680 or 1690, because after that slavery begins to morphe into something even more sinister. You should check out the African In America series on PBS website.
Knowledge is power!
Many were slaves.

You forget that a slavery system is not always identical to that of the USA perpetrated against black people.

Many Irish were literally slaves. Slavery was legal and there was no provision that the slaves not be white.

I know about African-American history but don't see what that has to do with the history of Irish and Scottish slaves. Some were even English... always the very poor, of course.

True, white slavery diminished after the 17th century as Africans were brought over.

Sinister to put it mildly. I would not say that what was done to Ireland and Scotland was any less so. The potato famine was enabled by English rule, the starving Irish worked to death in concentration camps (workhouses), many forced onto ships for America. The Irish experienced some Nazism, some slavery, and generally horrendous abuse. There were times when playing an Irish musical instrument or speaking Gaelic in public could get you executed.

I am not ever involved in any kind of competition to relate one people's suffering to another's. The fact that whites were enslaved has no bearing on what was done to black people. It doesn't ameliorate or balance or alleviate or anything else.

Interestingly, more blacks and whites both were enslaved by Muslims than by Europeans. By far...
Barros Serrano

Reserve, NM

#1132 Jan 22, 2013
Alpha wrote:
Fo example of white females (mainly indentured servants) with black slaves ;
Lerone Bennett Jr
Abbott Emerson Smith
Richard Brandon Morris
Etc
The 2 lasts are scholars about the indentured servants who were indeed slaves but for a temporary period. They were the rabble of London, or poor hungry people who were enslaved due to the vicious law system set up by the english high class ( poor relief)
Anyway white folks in America should not mock anyone because 1/2 or 2/3 of the first migrants came as slaves and many of them died before their indenture period from 3 to 14 years (for the hard criminals). In some rare case they were even slaves for life ( see Morris).
The white indentured servants killed their masters, rebelled, some were maroons along with black folks. Some fled to the indians. They were slaves period!
One could read "white cargo" by walsh and Jordan and the racist Hoffman " they were whites and slaves".
In ancient Rome there was around 3 millions of slaves and 99,9% were slaves, some could read Moses Finley. As I said whites have been slaves from antiquity to 17-18th century but this knowledge is hidden from the common people.
Europe during the middle age ( UK, France, Italy...) was full of slave plantations with white folks as slaves and the monks were harsh cruel slave owners.
The excellent French scholar Marc Bloch wrote wonderful article about these white slaves in Europe. But the average KKK or white Nazi don't know these facts, their ancestors represented the bulk of slaves. And ancient germany slaves were treated like beasts....
Some historians say that the majority of the French population were slaves until 1789.

What is not in the public consciousness also is that the brutal aristocracy were not of the same ethnicity as the peasants being oppressed. In England, the nobility were Normans. In France, Franks. In Spain, Visigoths. In northern Italy, Lombards.

Only in the north, in Germany, Denmark, Sweden, were the aristocrats of the same people as the poor. But even in eastern Germany, the people were often Slavs who'd been run over by Germans.

These aristocrats, mostly of German origin, perpetuate the legacy of Rome which they overwhelmed, but whose imperialist mode they adopted. Then the schools teach that the heritage of European people is Greece and Rome.

In fact the real heritage comes from Celtiberians, Gauls, Britons, etc.

“Leading the Revolution”

Level 6

Since: Oct 09

United States

#1133 Jan 22, 2013
Sorry Barros but I'm not interested in what white's may have done to each other, I'm not European, I'm African and my only focus is Africans. Slavery and oppression against Africans are my areas of focus, I'm not interested in Jews or any other European.
Alpha

Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic

#1134 Jan 22, 2013
Barros,

It is true that most of the French were serfs in 1789 and the french nobility was rooted on the franks dynasty ( German origin and Charlemagne could not speak the Gallic language of the Gauls)

This is why the national hymn la marseillaise says " un sang impure abreuve nos sillons " , sang impure was for the franks vs the "true blood" which was for the natives or Gauls. In 1789 the French people went in Saint Denis (5mn from Paris) and profaned all their former kings tombs.
Slavery as known during roman period deseappared in France around the 11th century, and serfs were progressively emancipated during Louis X royalty.

However when we have a close look to the French Indentured servants treatments in Martinique and Guadeloupe ( Pere Labat said that a French master killed more than 50 indentured servants in Guadeloupe) we may guess that these serfs were treated like beasts.

The slave system in the new world was based on the Fuero Juzgo, las Siete Partidas, the Justinian code ( all Childs of roman laws regarding the slaves) and also the bible ( give up his freedom for few years to serve somebody as described in the bible).

However the slave system practiced in the new world was first designed and executed in ancient Rome ( Moses Finley's books is a masterpiece). The Partus Sequitur ventrem ( son of a female slave is a slave even if the father is free) was already applied in Rome. In Rome and even ancient Greece the slave masters would separate the slaves who had a common origin and languages iin order to avoid slave revolts. There have been 4 slaves major slave revolts in human history who broke out as war of extermination vs the masters : 3 in ancient Rome and one in the new world (Haiti).

Anyway white slavery during antiquity, high middle age and even until the 17 th century in the new world ( as true slaves in the Spanish colonies)7405 is well documented
Alpha

Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic

#1135 Jan 22, 2013
White slavery was already a perfect machine with all the vicious forms:
- slaves punishments : whip, chains, mutilations, jails
- slave breeding (Rome and Greece)
- slave law system : example a freedman in Europe ( antiquity and middle age) should respect his former masters , if not he could be put back in slavery...as per the French code noir, or Spanish codo Negro Carolino. Or there was slaves as overseers in the roman slave plantations like in the new world etc, etc

Once again the white supremacists are ignorant of these well documented facts and most of the population in ancient Europe were slaves abused by the royalty and church. Marc Bloch showed in his works how the monks in Europe had thousand of slaves and refused their emancipationa or pronounced anathema against people who encouraged slaves to rebel ( as per the new world)

So no black man should be ashamed about the slavery it is a European trademark lol

“Leading the Revolution”

Level 6

Since: Oct 09

United States

#1136 Jan 22, 2013
Interesting information

Level 8

Since: Oct 11

Location hidden

#1137 Jan 22, 2013
Lola wrote:
<quoted text>
Many which is the reason why I know both were horrible. You thought the Arabs/muslims treated the Africans in a good way? They still treat the Africans in a horrible way.
The Jews of Bible are the same Jews of nowadays?
The Arabs of medieval times are the same Arabs of nowadays?

Of course not, you pignoramus...
impeach Congress

Morrow, GA

#1138 Jan 22, 2013
dkanela wrote:
There were never white slaves on America, there were white indenture servant's, but no slaves.
Go ahead. Stay in denial as loooong as ya want to Bubba! It's okay. LOL

“Leading the Revolution”

Level 6

Since: Oct 09

United States

#1140 Jan 23, 2013
Wrong.

Those descendants of kings who sold our ancestors into slavery, have at least apologized, whereas nothing from the oppressors.oppressor's
Lola

Léguevin, France

#1141 Jan 23, 2013
Jahx wrote:
<quoted text>
The Jews of Bible are the same Jews of nowadays?
The Arabs of medieval times are the same Arabs of nowadays?
Of course not, you pignoramus...
Pignoramus? Its ignoramus, which is what you are.
The Arabs of medieval times act the same as the modern Arabs.
Barros Serrano-Bey

Reserve, NM

#1142 Jan 23, 2013
dkanela wrote:
Sorry Barros but I'm not interested in what white's may have done to each other, I'm not European, I'm African and my only focus is Africans. Slavery and oppression against Africans are my areas of focus, I'm not interested in Jews or any other European.
This isn't about what you are interested in due to your own myopia based on bigotry.

I am simply discussing this as history. There is no point to be made, as I said. Nothing about white slavery decreases the atrocious nature of what was done to blacks. I have no axe to grind here.

But it is good to know about everyone's oppression in order to fight to prevent it. A global view is necessary. The system has been evil since long before they started the African slave trade. So concentrating only on Africans is of limited utility if you're really interested in confronting the system.

This is the problem with culture nationalism. It is parochial and essentially useless in any struggle. One needs an internationalist and revolutionary perspective.
Barros Serrano-Bey

Reserve, NM

#1143 Jan 23, 2013
Alpha wrote:
White slavery was already a perfect machine with all the vicious forms:
- slaves punishments : whip, chains, mutilations, jails
- slave breeding (Rome and Greece)
- slave law system : example a freedman in Europe ( antiquity and middle age) should respect his former masters , if not he could be put back in slavery...as per the French code noir, or Spanish codo Negro Carolino. Or there was slaves as overseers in the roman slave plantations like in the new world etc, etc
Once again the white supremacists are ignorant of these well documented facts and most of the population in ancient Europe were slaves abused by the royalty and church. Marc Bloch showed in his works how the monks in Europe had thousand of slaves and refused their emancipationa or pronounced anathema against people who encouraged slaves to rebel ( as per the new world)
So no black man should be ashamed about the slavery it is a European trademark lol
I've read Bloch. Very good stuff.

Arab slavery was no different from European. In fact, if you look at the map of the so-called “Arab” nations conquered inthe 7th-8th century, you'll notice they're all former Roman provinces.

Nothing about the Muslim realms was different from things in the West. It all comes out of the same system originally.
Barros Serrano-Bey

Reserve, NM

#1144 Jan 23, 2013
Alpha wrote:
Barros,
It is true that most of the French were serfs in 1789 and the french nobility was rooted on the franks dynasty ( German origin and Charlemagne could not speak the Gallic language of the Gauls)
This is why the national hymn la marseillaise says " un sang impure abreuve nos sillons " , sang impure was for the franks vs the "true blood" which was for the natives or Gauls. In 1789 the French people went in Saint Denis (5mn from Paris) and profaned all their former kings tombs.
Slavery as known during roman period deseappared in France around the 11th century, and serfs were progressively emancipated during Louis X royalty.
However when we have a close look to the French Indentured servants treatments in Martinique and Guadeloupe ( Pere Labat said that a French master killed more than 50 indentured servants in Guadeloupe) we may guess that these serfs were treated like beasts.
The slave system in the new world was based on the Fuero Juzgo, las Siete Partidas, the Justinian code ( all Childs of roman laws regarding the slaves) and also the bible ( give up his freedom for few years to serve somebody as described in the bible).
However the slave system practiced in the new world was first designed and executed in ancient Rome ( Moses Finley's books is a masterpiece). The Partus Sequitur ventrem ( son of a female slave is a slave even if the father is free) was already applied in Rome. In Rome and even ancient Greece the slave masters would separate the slaves who had a common origin and languages iin order to avoid slave revolts. There have been 4 slaves major slave revolts in human history who broke out as war of extermination vs the masters : 3 in ancient Rome and one in the new world (Haiti).
Anyway white slavery during antiquity, high middle age and even until the 17 th century in the new world ( as true slaves in the Spanish colonies)7405 is well documented
Yes. In evaluating life under feudalism, we have to remember that it varied from place to place. It is said to have been worst in France. There it is possible to equate serfdom with slavery in many cases.

A serf often could not leave the lord's (master's) property without a pass, was subject to punishment at the whims of the lord or overseer, and so on.

There were, unfortunately rare, cases when feudalism actually worked well for the peasants, where the system was functional and minimally oppressive. This was especially noted in Catalonia, interestingy a hotbed of anarchy in modern times.

There is a very interesting novel called “Los Pasos de Ullua”, I forget the author, about this, about the peasants gaining control over the guy in the manor, assimilating him into their culture, and making the system work almost like anarchist communism to the benefit of all. A work of fiction, of course... and reflecting the influence of Spanish anarchism.
Barros Serrano-Bey

Reserve, NM

#1145 Jan 23, 2013
dkanela wrote:
Wrong.
Those descendants of kings who sold our ancestors into slavery, have at least apologized, whereas nothing from the oppressors.oppressor's
Didn't Bill Clinton apologize for slavery on behalf of the USA?

I would emphasize that what is important is to focus on justice NOW. Africa is still under the “neocolonialist”, to use Nkrumah's term, boot, and AA's along with most other Yanks are getting screwed bigtime by this system as corporate hegemony increases.

Of course my perspective is that we need unity among all people to fight against this, and against the double threat to the world's people posed by corporate imperialism and by Islamoimperialism, both systems with a long history of slaving and abusing Africans.

“Leading the Revolution”

Level 6

Since: Oct 09

United States

#1146 Jan 23, 2013
The US and Europe have never apologized for their role in slavery!
Barros Serrano-Bey

Reserve, NM

#1147 Jan 23, 2013
dkanela wrote:
The US and Europe have never apologized for their role in slavery!
They owe a lot of apologies. As does the Islamic world.

“Leading the Revolution”

Level 6

Since: Oct 09

United States

#1148 Jan 23, 2013
Barros

No matter what the subject is you find a way to disrespect Islam, and Muslims.
Alpha

Santiago, Dominican Republic

#1149 Jan 23, 2013
Barros,

I'm black and Muslim so I don't have any sympathy for any racist. So being honest with you some Arabs and north Africans were / are racists vs black folks. However they are ignorant because Arabs were black folks ( as documented by all honest scholars : Bertram Thomas, Francois lenormant, caussin de Perceval and also by ancient Arab traditions). A man like Ubadah Ibn Samit was a black man and pure noble Arab.

However slavery practiced by the Arabs was not the same as per the new world. For example in Muslim spain , in a town like cordoba many Saqalibas or white slaves were freed and became men of importance. Look at the Mameluks of Egypt all slave soldiers ( ancient custom from Greece) but with excellent position. In fact Arabs and North Africans were enslaved in Spain, south of France, Italy, Sicily , Crete etc. In towns like Sevilla you had more Muslim slaves than Africans before the Portuguese discovered Africa.

In fact the fact the first African slaves kidnapped by the Portuguese were Berbers from the Azenague tribe in Morocco and most of the slaves in Spain and Portugal after the reconquista were Berber slaves.
Alpha

Santiago, Dominican Republic

#1150 Jan 23, 2013
Arab slave trade existed vs the Africans in Zanzibar and other places, but Arabs enslaved Arabs, Jews, Turks, Europeans,Berbers, Africans, Persians etc, etc. The curse of ham is nothing to be found and many prophets ( Adam, Moses, houd, Jesus etc) or wise men (the Arabian king Loqman) are described as black folks. But I give to you that many Arabs are ignorant and racists.

Ancient Arabs associated a white skin ( called red) with slavery as recorded by their scholars . The best European book I've read about the ash slave system is " race and slavery in the middle east " by Bernard Lewis and guess what ? Lewis says that most of the slaves in Arabia and Muslim countries until the 18th century where white folks ( just remember the European slaves in Algeria , Tunisia. Libya was such a huge problem than uncle Sam went warriors ships to north Africa), then the fountain was cut off and they turned to black slaves.

Reading Bernard Lewis's book (with evidences of black arabs) made me aware that most of the slaves in the muslim world were not blacks : Turks, Persians, Berbers, Romans, greeks, Byzantines etc

Cuidate

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