"There are no atheists in foxholes" -...

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#46 Sep 26, 2013
Walter Henrickson wrote:
<quoted text>:) Well, the post count has more than double eleven as I type this. I'll guess at least fifty. That is, unless people start changing the subject to IR, the Moors, a black queen of England, or Italians not being white, in which case I'd guess at least 10,000.
LOL! Most of the posts are mine, but that's okay.:) If the topic changes to anywhere *near* "IR, the Moors, a black queen of England, or Italians not being white", then I'd be done with this thread, unless I was trying to set it on track.:)

I honestly didn't think that some people would be interested in this thread. I am pleasantly surprised and happy to be wrong.:)

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#47 Sep 26, 2013
Walter Henrickson wrote:
<quoted text>Ah, I see. Thanks. I've liked Alice in Chains too, though I've never got that much into them.
I think I need to correct myself-- I'm pretty sure that Jerry Cantrell *does* do some lead vocals on some songs. I haven't pulled out my Alice In Chains CDs in awhile, but needless to say, I will now.:)

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#48 Sep 26, 2013
Walter Henrickson wrote:
<quoted text>This is a perennial question in philosophy. Here is a good article that tries to catalogue the different responses that have been given to the Leibniz question, as the author calls it, or the question of 'Why Is There Anything At All?':

http://tinyurl.com/8y4lmew

That article is on a blog I follow written by a philosopher of religion with a Roman Catholic background. It really is a great blog with all kinds of interesting stuff. He sometimes gets in to some of the stuff you and another poster were discussing about neurobiology and philosophy of the mind. It's fascinating. You might really like the blog.

Sometimes he is critical of scientists who talk about issues, like Hawking does, and takes apart their statements and shows how their reasoning is faulty. I haven't seen where he talks about Hawking though.
I can't wait to read it. I'll have time in a little while to check it out. Thanks, Walter!:)

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#49 Sep 26, 2013
Jason wrote:
Just check out www.militaryatheists.org . Lots of atheists on foxholes to disprove that hateful old myth.

Also, a scared atheist isn't Christian. Being frightened is no substitute for faith. In that sense, that old saying is just as derogatory toward believers as it is to atheists.
Don't take this thread to be so one-sided! If you disagree, then that's fine... that's why I put "true or false?" in the thread's name. Someone has already stated "false", and that poster and I had a perfectly civil conversation.

I'm not trying to shove anything down anybody's throat, like so many threads here-- far from it, actually. I just want to see and participate in an intelligent discussion.:)

(I never said that a scared atheist is a Christian; nor did I say that fright is a substitution for faith. From where did you get that? The conversations here have gone much deeper than your blanket statements. Please delve into the conversations if you'd like, though!)
Giggs

Manchester, UK

#50 Sep 27, 2013
Lady Greensleeves wrote:
<quoted text>
"You have a point."
Thanks.:)
"But I don't trust these peoples integrity. People get desperate and they switch religions all the time. Someone with strong beliefs would not convert like that."
I get what you're saying. I do think that some, or even many of these "foxhole" praying people have reached the end of their rope and are now praying utterly desperately to a God that they know they don't believe in. Empty praying, in other words. Do we, as people, do this because the notion of God is ingrained into our very being? It's such a curious circumstance.
I've found that the *true* believers after the "foxholes" are still talking to God and thanking God *after* the danger has passed. The others go right back to their lives, but in that second of desperacy, there was most probably true belief, even if it didn't stay. Maybe these people didn't want that feeling to stay.(I'd *love love love* to talk to people who have been near death in an unbelieving state about this!)
I wouldn't call this "switching religions", because atheism is not a religion. Also, because atheism is a system based on non-belief, I believe that the feeling can't really be strong; it either is, or it isn't, and it's just a fact. You've never heard of an atheistic fanatic, have you? Christian fanatic- yes, Islamist fanatic- yes, etc etc LoL.:) People get very zealous-- sometimes *over*zealous!-- when it comes to religion, but I don't see that in atheists. That "spark" isn't there. Again, what do you think?:)
It isn't easy being an Atheist. You need strong beliefs in barely proven, hard to understand scientific theories and courage to be an Atheist. Im Agnostic (raised catholic). I haven't the courage to totally dismiss a supreme being (im not a mason either) but I can say I dont trust books and other people when they tell me about God.(ive met enough liars).

Some Atheists are fanatical.(MUST WATCH)


....This guy is one of my favorites.

I dont personally feel I have turned my back on God.... But rather I have turned my back on the scriptures and preachers who lied to me.

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#52 Sep 27, 2013
Giggs wrote:
<quoted text>It isn't easy being an Atheist. You need strong beliefs in barely proven, hard to understand scientific theories and courage to be an Atheist. Im Agnostic (raised catholic). I haven't the courage to totally dismiss a supreme being (im not a mason either) but I can say I dont trust books and other people when they tell me about God.(ive met enough liars).

Some Atheists are fanatical.(MUST WATCH)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =Jk4AJ1BgQX8XX

....This guy is one of my favorites.

I dont personally feel I have turned my back on God.... But rather I have turned my back on the scriptures and preachers who lied to me.
Good morning.:) I was raised in a very Catholic home myself, so I share that with you. I believe you when you say "It isn't easy being an Atheist. You need strong beliefs in barely proven, hard to understand scientific theories and courage to be an Atheist." My initial, gut reaction thought to reading this was "It sounds a lot like being a Christian / Catholic, actually!". I've mentioned more than once on Topix that, after years of thought, Catholicism is too deeply embedded in me to "get away from it", for lack of better words. It seems that we are alike in that aspect, also, since you say "I haven't the courage to totally dismiss a supreme being".:)(By the way, it is courageous of you to admit that you haven't the courage to totally dismiss God / a supreme being!) My fiance is an Agnostic, as in he says that "There may or may not be a God; he just hasn't seen enough to prove God". It occurs to me that I don't have nearly enough conversations about God with him.

I, too, see where *people* have deeply screwed up God and spirituality with religion. I do think that there's a difference between believing in God and being religious. Since we will be lied to for the duration of our lives, I try to discern and cut away the lies. If there were *no* people, the notion of God would be *completely pure*, wouldn't it?:) Unfortunately, we have all of us mucking about with our egos speaking. There are many, many books and people that I distrust as well, but I try to remember that even the sincerest of us are fallible beings and will make mistakes. I have my own questions concerning Catholicism that I've still yet to ask. I'm going to Italy in May of this year; perhaps I'll find someone very qualified to ask.:)

That was a great video! He was eloquent and self-deprecating, and I *always* appreciate a good dose of sarcasm and wit.:) I'll look up his other videos.(What is his name again?) You've corrected me; there *are* fanatical atheists. I love learning something new every day.:) I disagree with him on a few points, but I'll focus only on this for now: The Trinity, God as three persons in one.

Genesis 1:26 <I've capitalized the most important points> Then GOD said, "Let US make mankind in OUR image, in OUR likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

This verse, with God (singular) using "us", "our", "our", indicates a Trinity to me. God is talking to / amongst / with himself (themselves). Interesting stuff.:) These are the sorts of things (mysteries) that I believe we will completely understand once we are unfettered from our own limitations (after death).

May I ask who has lied to you, and about what? I understand if you don't want to discuss it, but I'm curious, and we may yet have more in common.:)

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#55 Sep 27, 2013
Psy Doc wrote:
<quoted text>He's very good at exposing the flaws in Naturalism. If the human mind is the creation of random, irrational causes, how can we trust it's conclusions? Isn't it also irrational?

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ENwsg4Mcr...
I'm in the midst of reading this right now. The man is a genius, and *so* good at explaining what he's saying. So far (and I'm not that far into it yet), I've found this which correlates with the thread-- not that it's the only quote yet that I can pull out with a correlation, but for me it stood out:

"It is true that some people may find they have to wait in the hall for a considerable time, while others feel certain almost at once which door they must knock at. I do not know why there is this difference, but I am sure God keeps no one waiting unless He sees that it is good for him to wait. When you do get into your room you will find that the long wait has done you some kind of good which you would not have had otherwise. But you must regard it as waiting, not as camping. You must keep on praying for light: and, of course, even in the hall, you must begin trying to obey the rules which are common to the whole house. And above all you must be asking which door is the true one; not which pleases you best by its paint and panelling."

--If the human mind was indeed the creation (product) of random, irrational causes, then it most certainly would have to have those traits to go along with it.(An apple tree comes from an apple tree, with all of the traits of an apple tree, does it not? One will never get a white pine from an apple tree!) The mind would be "mindless", not thinking or concerned about anything whatsoever, or else haphazard, random so-called "thoughts" would occur, and then how could we even call it "the mind"? "Irrational" would be a *perfect* word for it, and since we would be mindlessly irrational, we wouldn't even have the *ability* to say that we are mindlessly irrational! Since we *are* rational, thinking about this sort of "thinking" could drive us insane!

Check this out about "circular reasoning" when you can, and I'll continue reading.:)

http://www.reasonsforgod.org/2013/03/the-circ...

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#57 Sep 27, 2013
Psy Doc wrote:
This law was called the Law of Nature because people thought that every one knew it by nature and did not need to be taught it. They did not mean, of course, that you might not find an odd individual here and there who did not know it, just as you find a few people who are colour-blind or have no ear for a tune. But taking the race as a whole, they thought that the human idea of decent behaviour was obvious to every one. And I believe they were right. If they were not, then all the things we said about the war were nonsense. What was the sense in saying the enemy were in the wrong unless Right is a real thing which the Nazis at bottom knew as well as we did and ought to have practised? If they had had no notion of what we mean by right, then, though we might still have had to fight them, we could no more have blamed them for that than for the colour of their hair.

I know that some people say the idea of a Law of Nature or decent behaviour known to all men is unsound, because different civilisations and different ages have had quite different moralities.

But this is not true. There have been differences between their moralities, but these have never amounted to anything like a total difference. If anyone will take the trouble to compare the moral teaching of, say, the ancient Egyptians, Babylonians, Hindus, Chinese, Greeks and Romans, what will really strike him will be how very like they are to each other and to our own. Some of the evidence for this I have put together in the appendix of another book called The Abolition of Man; but for our present purpose I need only ask the reader to think what a totally different morality would mean. Think of a country where people were admired for running away in battle, or where a man felt proud of double-crossing all the people who had been kindest to him. You might just as well try to imagine a country where two and two made five. Men have differed as regards what people you ought to be unselfish to—whether it was only your own family, or your fellow countrymen, or everyone. But they have always agreed that you ought not to put yourself first. Selfishness has never been admired. Men have differed as to whether you should have one wife or four. But they have always agreed that you must not simply have any woman you liked.

But the most remarkable thing is this. Whenever you find a man who says he does not believe in a real Right and Wrong, you will find the same man going back on this a moment later. He may break his promise to you, but if you try breaking one to him he will be complaining "It's not fair" before you can say Jack Robinson. A nation may say treaties do not matter, but then, next minute, they spoil their case by saying that the particular treaty they want to break was an unfair one. But if treaties do not matter, and if there is no such thing as Right and Wrong— in other words, if there is no Law of Nature—what is the difference between a fair treaty and an unfair one? Have they not let the cat out of the bag and shown that, whatever they say, they really know the Law of Nature just like anyone else?
What this was preceded by struck me as particularly interesting. "As an organism, he is subjected to various biological laws which he cannot disobey any more than an animal can. That is, he cannot disobey those laws which he shares with other things; but **the law which is peculiar to his human nature, the law he does not share with animals or vegetables or inorganic things, is the one he can disobey if he chooses.**"

That is some profound thinking. He's obviously very incisive.

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#58 Sep 27, 2013
Psy Doc wrote:
<quoted text>Seriously, reading C.S. Lewis to me is like drinking a fine glass of port. I savor it.
I completely agree with you. The words are honeyed; they flow and go down so smoothly.:) It truly is beautiful writing, and best of all-- it makes sense without being pompous. If anything, it is fantastically humble.
God

Huntsville, AL

#59 Sep 27, 2013
There never was a creator,nor are there devils.
The secret of all the secret,the secret that haunts the hearts of men, what is beyond so-called "God"(santa clause)?To think is to lie to yourself. Thoughts are nothing more than an attempt to create meaning that doesn't really exist. Thoughts are just creativity, never the true reality. That's why the Buddha's say that "the only way to find the truth is to empty your cup (mind) completely". everything is just energy at work. when you die you go back to the truth because the brain that facilitates your thoughts and beliefs dies and all that is left is the truth about what you truly are.

All compounds will be dissolved again, but the verities which determine all combinations and separations as laws of nature endure for ever and aye. Bodies fall to dust, but the truths of the mind will not be destroyed.

"Truth knows neither birth nor death; it has no beginning and no end. Welcome the truth. The truth is the immortal part of mind."--Buddha

"There is no God or devil.Your religion is for immature people"--Osho



"Being never develops. Being simply is. There is no evolution, there is no time involved in it. It is eternity, it is not "becoming." Spiritually, you never develop; you cannot. As far as the ultimate goal is concerned, you are already there. You have never been anywhere else.

Then what is development? Development is only a kind of awakening to the truth that you are. The truth does not grow; only recognition grows, remembrance grows.
you are already Gods,Buddhas from the very beginning

All is an illusion, we individually and collectively participate in creating our own individual and collective realities. Everything, at its most basic level is energy. At no time in space can energy be created nor destroyed, it can only change from one form to another, as for matter it is 99.99999999% empty only 0.00000001% energy, with your five senses it creates matter right before your eyes, your frequency level matches the frequency of matter in the illusion reality you occupy, the planet is a construct of an ideal that occupies time and space, each dimension is happening at once, you choose to be here and now, free will. you accepted,you are the God/Godddess.

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#60 Sep 27, 2013
God wrote:
There never was a creator,nor are there devils.
The secret of all the secret,the secret that haunts the hearts of men, what is beyond so-called "God"(santa clause)?To think is to lie to yourself. Thoughts are nothing more than an attempt to create meaning that doesn't really exist. Thoughts are just creativity, never the true reality. That's why the Buddha's say that "the only way to find the truth is to empty your cup (mind) completely". everything is just energy at work. when you die you go back to the truth because the brain that facilitates your thoughts and beliefs dies and all that is left is the truth about what you truly are.

All compounds will be dissolved again, but the verities which determine all combinations and separations as laws of nature endure for ever and aye. Bodies fall to dust, but the truths of the mind will not be destroyed.

"Truth knows neither birth nor death; it has no beginning and no end. Welcome the truth. The truth is the immortal part of mind."--Buddha

"There is no God or devil.Your religion is for immature people"--Osho

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =p0H5JnNXpTMXX

"Being never develops. Being simply is. There is no evolution, there is no time involved in it. It is eternity, it is not "becoming." Spiritually, you never develop; you cannot. As far as the ultimate goal is concerned, you are already there. You have never been anywhere else.

Then what is development? Development is only a kind of awakening to the truth that you are. The truth does not grow; only recognition grows, remembrance grows.
you are already Gods,Buddhas from the very beginning

All is an illusion, we individually and collectively participate in creating our own individual and collective realities. Everything, at its most basic level is energy. At no time in space can energy be created nor destroyed, it can only change from one form to another, as for matter it is 99.99999999% empty only 0.00000001% energy, with your five senses it creates matter right before your eyes, your frequency level matches the frequency of matter in the illusion reality you occupy, the planet is a construct of an ideal that occupies time and space, each dimension is happening at once, you choose to be here and now, free will. you accepted,you are the God/Godddess.
"Thoughts are nothing more than an attempt to create meaning that doesn't really exist."

So your post is meaningless, since they are your thoughts?

"Well, now that we have seen each other," said the unicorn, "if you'll believe in me, I'll believe in you."
― Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass, and What Alice Found There
Stag_R_Lee

Scottsdale, AZ

#61 Sep 27, 2013
Lady Greensleeves wrote:
<quoted text>
"Thoughts are nothing more than an attempt to create meaning that doesn't really exist."
So your post is meaningless, since they are your thoughts?
"Well, now that we have seen each other," said the unicorn, "if you'll believe in me, I'll believe in you."
― Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass, and What Alice Found There
Or the same idea in "Alice in Wonderland.

“I see what I eat…I eat what I see”
God

Huntsville, AL

#62 Sep 27, 2013
Lady Greensleeves wrote:
<quoted text>
"Thoughts are nothing more than an attempt to create meaning that doesn't really exist."
So your post is meaningless, since they are your thoughts?
"Well, now that we have seen each other," said the unicorn, "if you'll believe in me, I'll believe in you."
― Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass, and What Alice Found There
"You are the living gospel, observe and experience.
Its all about your belief system. let go of the belief of Gods, and devils. what remains is just you and your thoughts."-OSHO

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#63 Sep 27, 2013
Stag_R_Lee wrote:
<quoted text>Or the same idea in "Alice in Wonderland.

“I see what I eat…I eat what I see”
"Through the Looking-Glass, and What Alice Found There" is the book that came after "Alice's Adventures In Wonderland", both by Lewis Carroll.:) They are excellent books. I'd advise getting "The Annotated Alice"-- it has both books, original drawings, and is full of annotations. Just about every line is annotated.

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#64 Sep 27, 2013
God wrote:
<quoted text>"You are the living gospel, observe and experience.
Its all about your belief system. let go of the belief of Gods, and devils. what remains is just you and your thoughts."-OSHO
Do you have any thoughts on the saying "there are no atheists in foxholes"?
God

Huntsville, AL

#66 Sep 27, 2013
"Nobody is a sinner,but if you believe you are a sinner,you remain a sinner.It is only a question of belief
swayam means self.Bhu means existent-self existent.There things that are not self existent;they depend on others for existence.For example water is not self-existent.It depends on hydrogen and oxygen;it is a combination.If hydrogen and oxygen disappear from existence,water will disappear.

It is a secondary phenomenon,not primary.Consciousness is a primary phenomenon.It is not a combination of anything else.That is the meaning of swayambhu.You cannot disappear from existence.There is no way to destroy you;no death can kill you,no poison can touch you. The innermost core of your being is eternal."--Osho
God

Huntsville, AL

#67 Sep 27, 2013
Lady Greensleeves wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you have any thoughts on the saying "there are no atheists in foxholes"?
You are that God youre looking for.

It is said by one of Lao Tzu's great disciples, Lieh Tzu, that once an idiot was searching for fire with a candle in his hand. Said Lieh Tzu: "Had he known what fire was, he could have cooked his rice sooner." He remained hungry the whole night because he was searching for fire but couldn't find it - and he had a candle in his hand, because how can you search in the dark without a candle?

You are searching for uniqueness, and you have it in your hand; if you understand, you can cook your rice sooner. I have cooked my rice and I know. You are unnecessarily hungry - the rice is there, the candle is there, the candle is fire. There is no need to take the candle and search. If you take a candle in your hand and you go searching all over the world, you will not find fire because you don't understand what fire is. Otherwise you could have seen that you were carrying it in your hand.
God

Huntsville, AL

#68 Sep 27, 2013
"Most people are living such a miniscule portion of what they are capable of.If human beings realized the immensity of what is to be a human being there wouldn’t be so much god talk in the planet.-Sadhguru Jaggi
God

Huntsville, AL

#69 Sep 27, 2013
The oldest religion in the world is Jainism. It is a small religion, that's why not much is known to the outside world; it exists only in India. Jainism has no God; hence, there is no possibility of prayer.

When God and prayer are discarded, then what is left for a religion? God is somewhere outside, your prayer is addressed to someone outside. Discarding God and prayer you are really saying, "I would like now to go inward." And meditation is a way of going inward.
For thousands of years Jainas have been vegetarians. You have to know this fact, that all their twenty-four teachers -- they call them tirthankaras, their messiahs -- came from the warrior caste.

Buddha did not believe in God, did not believe in prayer.

I want you to understand it: the moment God and prayer are discarded, the only thing that is left is to go in. Buddha was from the warrior caste, son of a king, trained to kill. He was not a vegetarian. But when meditation started blossoming in him, just as a by-product the vegetarian idea came into his being: you cannot kill animals for eating, you cannot destroy life. While every kind of delicious food is available, what is the need to kill living beings?"--Osho the Zen master
Stag_R_Lee

Scottsdale, AZ

#70 Sep 27, 2013
Lady Greensleeves wrote:
<quoted text>
"Through the Looking-Glass, and What Alice Found There" is the book that came after "Alice's Adventures In Wonderland", both by Lewis Carroll.:) They are excellent books. I'd advise getting "The Annotated Alice"-- it has both books, original drawings, and is full of annotations. Just about every line is annotated.
Advanced reading, I'm not up to it. Thanks anyway.

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