Leroy

Charleston, SC

#329 Nov 22, 2012
Bigsmoke wrote:
<quoted text>
Yeah many African countries are now finally industrializing and with help from the Chinese it should really speed up and now the west will also have to compete thus will also do so.
I believe Angola is going to emerge as the big economic and military power of Africa in the coming decades.
The Angolan establishment know what they're doing even though the country is still in a mess after such a long civil war. They're selling oil in return for the Chinese to build infrastructure while teaching the locals. Luanda seems to be rapidly transforming
Most importantly is Angola is truly independent.
I'm not to sure about Nigeria, they're essentially still a British colony or should I say British-Dutch (Royal Dutch Shell) and I believe their potential is threatening to the UK & Netherlands so it would be best to keep them down.
I am reminded of apes trying to stick blocks in the holes of a child's toy.

“Try harder :)”

Level 8

Since: Oct 11

Location hidden

#331 Nov 22, 2012
Bigsmoke wrote:
<quoted text>
Yeah many African countries are now finally industrializing and with help from the Chinese it should really speed up and now the west will also have to compete thus will also do so.
I believe Angola is going to emerge as the big economic and military power of Africa in the coming decades.
The Angolan establishment know what they're doing even though the country is still in a mess after such a long civil war. They're selling oil in return for the Chinese to build infrastructure while teaching the locals. Luanda seems to be rapidly transforming
Most importantly is Angola is truly independent.
I'm not to sure about Nigeria, they're essentially still a British colony or should I say British-Dutch (Royal Dutch Shell) and I believe their potential is threatening to the UK & Netherlands so it would be best to keep them down.
Yeah the west hates Angolan with a passion. They were never a pawn of the west. They fought the Portugese, and even got help from Cuba to fight South Africa...Now they got help from China.

Angolan has never been a pawn of the west. I think Angolan is Africa's last hope and so is China.

China is basically guarding Angolan. I know China doesn't really care for the locals and just wants the resources, but they are Africa's last hope...

“Africa”

Level 7

Since: Jan 12

Oakland

#332 Nov 22, 2012
Bigsmoke wrote:
<quoted text>
The key word here is ''attempted''. I do not believe it, they had hundreds of years to do it yet could only ''attempt'' to? Seriously?
You can "not believe it" all you wish. You cannot disprove it, and yes, they did produce arms, it was simply not proficient enough to counter European technology.
Bigsmoke wrote:
No you didn't show me anything like how you can't show me now.

Jeziz Crise...

https://www.google.com/search...
Bigsmoke wrote:
You tried.
No, I decided not to utilize my too many of my creative energy for the purposes of this debate like I usually would, as I don't really see the point.
Bigsmoke wrote:
Really?
Most people manufacture external goods out of convenience. It happened then, it happens now.
Bigsmoke wrote:
''In advanced'' not ''advanced steel''. Read that sentence again.
I'm not sure what "In advanced" is supposed to be.
Bigsmoke wrote:
So are you saying Africans were to dumb to make a gun? Is that why there are munition factories in Nigeria today producing assault rifles which are more complex than muskets?
They are producing them with the knowledge that they have acquired from peoples from more technologically advanced nations. It's called "transfer of knowledge". Such transfer did not occur prior to colonization, which is why they didn't make their own assault rifles prior to that. This isn't about intelligence. That is the argument you are trying to make. The argument here is about knowledge, not learning capacity.

The reasons why no African country manufactured assault rifles prior to colonization is because none of them had the knowledge.
Bigsmoke wrote:
I was talking about muskets, Europeans did not trade machine guns to Central-West Africans during the Atlantic Slave Trade rather basic muskets.
As for how to industrialize, well you just do. Gain the materials and know how then get on with it.
No, you just don't.

With this sentence, you demonstrate that you don't have the slightest clue. The reason why it took people 100s of thousands of years just to finally plant a simple seed in the ground and grow crops, is because the concept simply did not enter their minds, even though they were intelligent enough to be able to pull it off.

The people of pre colonial Africa didn't manufacture their own guns because they didn't have the knowledge or the impetus since they could simply get supplies from elsewhere. That is, until the nineteenth century when they were forced to make their own as a result of trade of arms being cut off.
Bigsmoke wrote:
This is not about the machine gun rather producing the musket to industrializing.
Who do you think taught the Japanese in the late 19th century? In regards to industrializing.
Why do you keep bringing up the Japanese as though the Japs and the Africans were in the same predicament as each other? The Europeans were already on their way to conquering Africa well before Japanese ever tried to industrialize.

If the Europeans were so adamant about NOT even selling Africans their better weapons, what makes think they would have actually TAUGHT THEM how to make them or give them any competitive advantage? And this of course, well after slavery and racism had set into the hearts and minds of Euros.

The japs actually had decent relations with Euros. Africans were still fighting for their countries. STOP trying to compare the two because there IS NO COMPARISON.

The Euros taught the Japs how to make their own guns, they taught them modern science and technology, and they taught them industrialization.

They did not teach these things to Africans. They were too busy trying to conquer them. The Euros were not busy trying to conquer and fight the Japs while they were industrializing.

“Africa”

Level 7

Since: Jan 12

Oakland

#333 Nov 22, 2012
Africa didn't manufacture their own guns

***machine guns, that is.
Bigsmoke

Kingston Upon Thames, UK

#334 Nov 22, 2012
big mike M wrote:
<quoted text>
Yeah the west hates Angolan with a passion. They were never a pawn of the west. They fought the Portugese, and even got help from Cuba to fight South Africa...Now they got help from China.
Angolan has never been a pawn of the west. I think Angolan is Africa's last hope and so is China.
China is basically guarding Angolan. I know China doesn't really care for the locals and just wants the resources, but they are Africa's last hope...
Portugal fcuked with them too hard I guess then the Cold War didn't help. But they won in the end.

Don't get it twisted China got involved and was on the western side during the civil war but I guess they've accepted the winners.

Yes China is looking for gains; natural resources and so are the Angolans; quick industrialization. It is a win, win situation for both sides and funny how the west tries to demonize the relationship.

Angola has some pretty fine women also :).

“But until then, I got you.”

Level 2

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#335 Nov 22, 2012
fair_guy wrote:
<quoted text>Not true heightism of black women is the problem...
Or maybe you have a nasty attitude..

“Try harder :)”

Level 8

Since: Oct 11

Location hidden

#336 Nov 22, 2012
Bigsmoke wrote:
<quoted text>
Portugal fcuked with them too hard I guess then the Cold War didn't help. But they won in the end.
Don't get it twisted China got involved and was on the western side during the civil war but I guess they've accepted the winners.
Yes China is looking for gains; natural resources and so are the Angolans; quick industrialization. It is a win, win situation for both sides and funny how the west tries to demonize the relationship.
Angola has some pretty fine women also :).
I just hope more African nations follow Angola's path. India was a British colony, but now Great Britian can't do shcit to India.

What if China was investing in Ghana when kwame nkrumah was still around. Ghana would have been unstoppable by now. Kwame was trying to bring electricity to all of Ghana, if the Chinese were around than maybe he could have succeeded.

And Angolan women remind me of Brazilian
Bigsmoke

Kingston Upon Thames, UK

#337 Nov 22, 2012
Bakari Neferu wrote:
<quoted text>
You can "not believe it" all you wish. You cannot disprove it, and yes, they did produce arms, it was simply not proficient enough to counter European technology.
300+ years, 300+ years. Remember that.

European technology? LOL is that why Russians industrialized after the Japanese?
Bakari Neferu wrote:
<quoted text>
No, I decided not to utilize my too many of my creative energy for the purposes of this debate like I usually would, as I don't really see the point.
Ha!
Bakari Neferu wrote:
<quoted text>
Most people manufacture external goods out of convenience. It happened then, it happens now.
Not even. Productive establishments do so for gain.
Bakari Neferu wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm not sure what "In advanced" is supposed to be.
''In advanced'' means when one is thinking ahead before you post your counter argument. In my case I said that because steel is the product of mixing iron with other elements so you could easily say it is not iron hence why I said in advanced...how I consider it to be a form of Iron.
Bakari Neferu wrote:
<quoted text>
They are producing them with the knowledge that they have acquired from peoples from more technologically advanced nations. It's called "transfer of knowledge". Such transfer did not occur prior to colonization, which is why they didn't make their own assault rifles prior to that. This isn't about intelligence. That is the argument you are trying to make. The argument here is about knowledge, not learning capacity.
The reasons why no African country manufactured assault rifles prior to colonization is because none of them had the knowledge.
No shlt.

Do you not know that Central-West Africans were traveling back and forth from Europe for centuries?

Again, how do you think Japan gained their knowledge?
Bakari Neferu wrote:
<quoted text>
No, you just don't.
With this sentence, you demonstrate that you don't have the slightest clue. The reason why it took people 100s of thousands of years just to finally plant a simple seed in the ground and grow crops, is because the concept simply did not enter their minds, even though they were intelligent enough to be able to pull it off.
The people of pre colonial Africa didn't manufacture their own guns because they didn't have the knowledge or the impetus since they could simply get supplies from elsewhere. That is, until the nineteenth century when they were forced to make their own as a result of trade of arms being cut off.
Small mind.

I guess you've never heard of a thing called ''learning''. Well those leaders were stupid to wait until the supply was cut of to actually adapt.
Bakari Neferu wrote:
<quoted text>
Why do you keep bringing up the Japanese as though the Japs and the Africans were in the same predicament as each other? The Europeans were already on their way to conquering Africa well before Japanese ever tried to industrialize.
If the Europeans were so adamant about NOT even selling Africans their better weapons, what makes think they would have actually TAUGHT THEM how to make them or give them any competitive advantage? And this of course, well after slavery and racism had set into the hearts and minds of Euros.
The japs actually had decent relations with Euros. Africans were still fighting for their countries. STOP trying to compare the two because there IS NO COMPARISON.
The Euros taught the Japs how to make their own guns, they taught them modern science and technology, and they taught them industrialization.
They did not teach these things to Africans. They were too busy trying to conquer them. The Euros were not busy trying to conquer and fight the Japs while they were industrializing.
Spare me the BS.

Because Japan industrialized right before the scramble of Africa occurred, so Africans had a long chance of also industrializing.
Bigsmoke

Kingston Upon Thames, UK

#338 Nov 22, 2012
big mike M wrote:
<quoted text>
I just hope more African nations follow Angola's path. India was a British colony, but now Great Britian can't do shcit to India.
What if China was investing in Ghana when kwame nkrumah was still around. Ghana would have been unstoppable by now. Kwame was trying to bring electricity to all of Ghana, if the Chinese were around than maybe he could have succeeded.
And Angolan women remind me of Brazilian
Indeed.

India will probably buy the UK one day LOL.

China weren't shlt back then but if they were and they invested in kwame nkrumah's regime, who knows.

Portugal, Angola, Brazil, Cape Verde; many similarities.

“Africa”

Level 7

Since: Jan 12

Oakland

#339 Nov 22, 2012
Bigsmoke wrote:
<quoted text>
300+ years, 300+ years. Remember that.
European technology? LOL is that why Russians industrialized after the Japanese?
I don't see how this statement is even relevant. West Africans in general had no direct dealings with either of those two entities prior leading to colonization.
Bigsmoke wrote:
Not even. Productive establishments do so for gain.
Yes even. African nations have always imported manufactured goods out of convenience.
Bigsmoke wrote:
No shlt.
Do you not know that Central-West Africans were traveling back and forth from Europe for centuries?
Again, how do you think Japan gained their knowledge?
The Portuguese taught Japs how to make guns. Who taught Africans how to make guns?
Bigsmoke wrote:
Small mind.
I guess you've never heard of a thing called ''learning''. Well those leaders were stupid to wait until the supply was cut of to actually adapt.
What makes you think they were waiting for anything? They did adapt. They bought guns to defend themselves.
Bigsmoke wrote:
Spare me the BS.
Because Japan industrialized right before the scramble of Africa occurred, so Africans had a long chance of also industrializing.
Japanese had a long chance at industrializing, yet didn't until they say other countries being colonized. By this time, West African countries were already at war with various other African and Euro entities. The Japanese were not at war with anybody when they saw other countries being colonized and started the industrialization process.
Bigsmoke

Kingston Upon Thames, UK

#340 Nov 23, 2012
Bakari Neferu wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't see how this statement is even relevant. West Africans in general had no direct dealings with either of those two entities prior leading to colonization.
Does it matter? they had 300+ years of direct contact with other European powers, including the first ones to industrialize.
Bakari Neferu wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes even. African nations have always imported manufactured goods out of convenience.
You mean out of stupidity.
Bakari Neferu wrote:
<quoted text>
The Portuguese taught Japs how to make guns. Who taught Africans how to make guns?
Nobody because they never sought to make guns.
Bakari Neferu wrote:
<quoted text>
What makes you think they were waiting for anything? They did adapt. They bought guns to defend themselves.
They didn't adapt then and have still not adapted.
Bakari Neferu wrote:
<quoted text>
Japanese had a long chance at industrializing, yet didn't until they say other countries being colonized. By this time, West African countries were already at war with various other African and Euro entities. The Japanese were not at war with anybody when they saw other countries being colonized and started the industrialization process.
Lame excuses. The Japanese re-engineered the musket prior, something West Africans didn't even try then they industrialized once they saw what it can do, something West Africans also didn't try.

“Africa”

Level 7

Since: Jan 12

Oakland

#341 Nov 23, 2012
Bigsmoke wrote:
<quoted text>
Does it matter? they had 300+ years of direct contact with other European powers, including the first ones to industrialize.
<quoted text>
And not once did any European show any African group how to make guns or industrialize.
Bigsmoke wrote:
You mean out of stupidity.
No, I mean exactly what I said. Convenience.
Bigsmoke wrote:
Nobody because they never sought to make guns.
The Beninese people did. How come the Brits or somebody didn't come to their aid?
Bigsmoke wrote:
They didn't adapt then and have still not adapted.
Yes they did adapt. They adapted by acquiring more sophisticated weaponry for themselves.
Bigsmoke wrote:
Lame excuses. The Japanese re-engineered the musket prior, something West Africans didn't even try then they industrialized once they saw what it can do, something West Africans also didn't try.
Nkrumah tried to industrialize and you still haven't proven this wrong. Prove it wrong.

And the Japanese were TAUGHT how to manufacture guns from the Portuguese, something that they never did with any African.

Europeans taught Japs how to make guns and how to industrialize. Two things that Euros never bothered to teach Africans.
Bigsmoke

Kingston Upon Thames, UK

#342 Nov 23, 2012
Bakari Neferu wrote:
<quoted text>
And not once did any European show any African group how to make guns or industrialize.
Because no African group sought to learn how to.
Bakari Neferu wrote:
<quoted text>
No, I mean exactly what I said. Convenience.
Stupidity.
Bakari Neferu wrote:
<quoted text>
The Beninese people did. How come the Brits or somebody didn't come to their aid?
Because they never pushed for it.
Bakari Neferu wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes they did adapt. They adapted by acquiring more sophisticated weaponry for themselves.
No they didn't adapt. I hope you do know the difference between buying machinery and being able to make it yourself.
Bakari Neferu wrote:
<quoted text>
Nkrumah tried to industrialize and you still haven't proven this wrong. Prove it wrong.
And the Japanese were TAUGHT how to manufacture guns from the Portuguese, something that they never did with any African.
Europeans taught Japs how to make guns and how to industrialize. Two things that Euros never bothered to teach Africans.
He really didn't.

The Japanese re-engineered the musket, decades later they sent people to the west to learn the basics of industrializing. Two things Africans could of easily done yet their leaders refused to.

“Africa”

Level 7

Since: Jan 12

Oakland

#343 Nov 23, 2012
Bigsmoke wrote:
<quoted text>
Because no African group sought to learn how to.
It's time for some education I see.

"The Samorian army did manage to acquire a large number of repeating rifles. Replacement and resupply however including ammunition, was a continuing problem. Freetown, under British rule in Sierra Leone, was an important source of supply. The French tried incessantly to cut this pipeline, and finally did in collaboration with the British. An attempt was made to manufacture guns indigenously, but quality was poor, although the African gunsmiths did succeed in rendering a workable breech mechanism, and in various repairs. Ammunition was also manufactured, and was so precious that after each battle, empty cartridge cases and even bullets were collected."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_military... (18001900)#African_military_s ystems_and_the_19th_century

Let me know when you're ready for some more learning.
Bigsmoke wrote:
Stupidity.
A quality you always have a habit of demonstrating with the utmost proficiency.
Bigsmoke wrote:
Because they never pushed for it.
And you never provide any evidence of this nonsense.

They made weapons and they were inferior to European weaponry.
Bigsmoke wrote:
No they didn't adapt. I hope you do know the difference between buying machinery and being able to make it yourself.
Yes they did adapt. They bought weaponry to defend themselves against opponent attack.
Bigsmoke wrote:
He really didn't.
The Japanese re-engineered the musket, decades later they sent people to the west to learn the basics of industrializing. Two things Africans could of easily done yet their leaders refused to.
I know for a fact you don't know what you're talking about now. That last sentence has no evidence for it whatsoever.

But here's some I got for you:

https://www.google.com/search...

Now stop being irritatingly stupid and prove that Nkrumah "refused" to industrialize.

The Japs were TAUGHT how to manufacture guns by the portuguese. Europeans came over to Japan and taught them modern technology.

Europeans had no benefit to be derived from teaching Africans how to industrialize, as that was their bread-basket. Teaching them how to make their own stuff would have rendered Europeans less useful and less able to extract profits from the land.

What incentive did Europeans have to slit their own thoughts like that?

Time for another lesson:

"But the Atlantic trade...lacked any of that 'development potential' which could have transferred the gains of European progress. It was concerned uniquely with narrow forms of exchange within fiercely guarded systems of monopoly. One can generalize the example of King Affonso's vain demand for shipbuilders; the last thing these Europeans could want, in fact, was the technological promotion of their African parters. If they exported guns to Africa it was only because, in their circumstances of internecine rivalry, they could not refuse them. But they certainly had no interest in prompting the know-how of firearms manufacture; and what went for guns went for everything else of this kind" p.230-31 The African Slave Trade, Basil Davidson.

Sense you seem to be awfully dyslexic today, I've decided to replay this part that you seem to be not understanding:

"certainly had no interest in prompting the know-how of FIREARMS MANUFACTURE; and what went for guns went for EVERYTHING ELSE OF THIS KIND."

Now go be illiterate with someone else.

“Africa”

Level 7

Since: Jan 12

Oakland

#344 Nov 23, 2012
***Since.

“Try harder :)”

Level 8

Since: Oct 11

Location hidden

#345 Nov 23, 2012
Bigsmoke wrote:
<quoted text>
Indeed.
India will probably buy the UK one day LOL.
China weren't shlt back then but if they were and they invested in kwame nkrumah's regime, who knows.
Portugal, Angola, Brazil, Cape Verde; many similarities.
I always hear about that..Lol

“Africa”

Level 7

Since: Jan 12

Oakland

#346 Nov 23, 2012
***Throats.

“Try harder :)”

Level 8

Since: Oct 11

Location hidden

#347 Nov 23, 2012
Uh...Bigsmoke Nkrumah did try to industrialize Ghana. Actually that was his first priority...
Bigsmoke

Sandhurst, UK

#348 Nov 23, 2012
Bakari Neferu wrote:
<quoted text>
It's time for some education I see.
"The Samorian army did manage to acquire a large number of repeating rifles. Replacement and resupply however including ammunition, was a continuing problem. Freetown, under British rule in Sierra Leone, was an important source of supply. The French tried incessantly to cut this pipeline, and finally did in collaboration with the British. An attempt was made to manufacture guns indigenously, but quality was poor, although the African gunsmiths did succeed in rendering a workable breech mechanism, and in various repairs. Ammunition was also manufactured, and was so precious that after each battle, empty cartridge cases and even bullets were collected."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_military... (18001900)#African_military_s ystems_and_the_19th_century
Let me know when you're ready for some more learning.
Wikipedia?

Too bad the link says ''Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name.''

Even still if what you quoted is true, then they simply didn't try hard enough.
Bakari Neferu wrote:
<quoted text>
A quality you always have a habit of demonstrating with the utmost proficiency.
Sure.
Bakari Neferu wrote:
<quoted text>
And you never provide any evidence of this nonsense.
They made weapons and they were inferior to European weaponry.
Why couldn't they make weapons on par with Europeans?
Bakari Neferu wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes they did adapt. They bought weaponry to defend themselves against opponent attack.
That is not adaptation that is a dependency.
Bakari Neferu wrote:
<quoted text>
I know for a fact you don't know what you're talking about now. That last sentence has no evidence for it whatsoever.
But here's some I got for you:
https://www.google.com/search...
Now stop being irritatingly stupid and prove that Nkrumah "refused" to industrialize.
The Japs were TAUGHT how to manufacture guns by the portuguese. Europeans came over to Japan and taught them modern technology.
Europeans had no benefit to be derived from teaching Africans how to industrialize, as that was their bread-basket. Teaching them how to make their own stuff would have rendered Europeans less useful and less able to extract profits from the land.
What incentive did Europeans have to slit their own thoughts like that?
Time for another lesson:
"But the Atlantic trade...lacked any of that 'development potential' which could have transferred the gains of European progress. It was concerned uniquely with narrow forms of exchange within fiercely guarded systems of monopoly. One can generalize the example of King Affonso's vain demand for shipbuilders; the last thing these Europeans could want, in fact, was the technological promotion of their African parters. If they exported guns to Africa it was only because, in their circumstances of internecine rivalry, they could not refuse them. But they certainly had no interest in prompting the know-how of firearms manufacture; and what went for guns went for everything else of this kind" p.230-31 The African Slave Trade, Basil Davidson.
Sense you seem to be awfully dyslexic today, I've decided to replay this part that you seem to be not understanding:
"certainly had no interest in prompting the know-how of FIREARMS MANUFACTURE; and what went for guns went for EVERYTHING ELSE OF THIS KIND."
Now go be illiterate with someone else.
The Japanese re-engineered the musket and sent people to the west to learn.

African leaders could of easily done the same. No excuses sorry.
Bigsmoke

Sandhurst, UK

#349 Nov 23, 2012
big mike M wrote:
Uh...Bigsmoke Nkrumah did try to industrialize Ghana. Actually that was his first priority...
But he failed, that is the point.

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