Is Satan Really Such A Bad Guy?

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“Ecko Lucifer”

Level 1

Since: Apr 08

Aurora, CO

#1 Dec 13, 2009
Okay, it is common belief among christians that Satan is the propigator of all evil. Why? We only know of God's side of the story put out by the church. We have yet to hear of Satan's point of view on it all, or why he really even rebelled.(Don't count paradise lost, it's a fiction based ON the bible.)

So, how can we hold Satan to be the all-evil god that wants to destroy us? If we compare their actions, we will see that God is guilty of killing over 2 million people, minus the killings that have no number attached to them, delivering plagues that crippled an entire nation, ordering the enslavement and rape of all virgin women, punishing sons for their father's sins, etc and etc and etc and etc.

What has Satan done? He gave us knowledge, the ability to make true moral judgements. He gave us the ability to decide who we are, free will. The very reason we are here, despite the war and death that do happen in this world, is because of him.

To be honest, if I had the choice between being a blind sheep devoid of pain, and being a fully sentient being with pain, I would take option 2.

finally, a verse for you all to maul over:

Isiah 45:7 "form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things."

Thoughts?
Tex

Austin, TX

#2 Dec 13, 2009
Simple question, simple answer.

God Created Lucifer. Lucifer and the angels that rebelled KNEW God. They KNEW that this being GAVE them LIFE and Power and was the Authority on Everything.

How Fckd up would it be if you gave someone the ultimate gift, and they had the ultimate proof of your might, yet they still defy you. It was extremely UNGRATEFUL.

That's the difference between humans and Angels. Our level of exposure to God isn't as Manifested as theirs, that's why they have no path for forgiveness. They are FIRST HAND WITNESSES TO THE MIGHT of the CREATOR. For them to deny the creator is RETARDED. Their existence isn't Faith based like ours has to be.

“Ecko Lucifer”

Level 1

Since: Apr 08

Aurora, CO

#3 Dec 13, 2009
Tex wrote:
Simple question, simple answer.
God Created Lucifer. Lucifer and the angels that rebelled KNEW God. They KNEW that this being GAVE them LIFE and Power and was the Authority on Everything.
How Fckd up would it be if you gave someone the ultimate gift, and they had the ultimate proof of your might, yet they still defy you. It was extremely UNGRATEFUL.
That's the difference between humans and Angels. Our level of exposure to God isn't as Manifested as theirs, that's why they have no path for forgiveness. They are FIRST HAND WITNESSES TO THE MIGHT of the CREATOR. For them to deny the creator is RETARDED. Their existence isn't Faith based like ours has to be.
Hitler gave Germany Europe, yet his own military plotted to kill him. The British Empire gave the pilgrims the chance to settle the east coast, yet the pilgrims rebelled. Why? Because both are/were corrupt.

It does not matter who gave you what you have, if they show themselves to be unworthy of respect, then they do not get it. If you had a drunken father, would you respect him, even if he did help bring you into this world? NO.

Same thing applies here. We may not have an authentic account of why Satan rebelled, but looking at God's actions with critical eyes, his reasons are heavily implied.

Level 3

Since: May 09

Location hidden

#4 Dec 13, 2009
Well, IMO, Satan isn't bad or good because "he" doesn't exist. It was just an invention to explain a contradiction in Judaism, than in Christianity and in Islam(and, as demons or other malefic entities, in other religions as well) "if God is good, why does "evil"(death, natural disasters, "evil"persons, etc) exists?"

“Ecko Lucifer”

Level 1

Since: Apr 08

Aurora, CO

#5 Dec 13, 2009
Amelya wrote:
Well, IMO, Satan isn't bad or good because "he" doesn't exist. It was just an invention to explain a contradiction in Judaism, than in Christianity and in Islam(and, as demons or other malefic entities, in other religions as well) "if God is good, why does "evil"(death, natural disasters, "evil"persons, etc) exists?"
Which is then getting into the philosophical argument of the problem of evil.

Though I understand where you are coming from with the non-existant thing, For the purposes of this thread, can you treat God and Satan like you would Frodo Baggins and Harry Potter?
Everyman

Clarksville, TN

#6 Dec 13, 2009
Gnostics believed that Satan was the one giving enlightenment by giving knowledge to mankind, and thus allowing man to gain true redemption. God was seen as enslaving because he wanted man to remain ignorant.

“Ecko Lucifer”

Level 1

Since: Apr 08

Aurora, CO

#7 Dec 13, 2009
Everyman wrote:
Gnostics believed that Satan was the one giving enlightenment by giving knowledge to mankind, and thus allowing man to gain true redemption. God was seen as enslaving because he wanted man to remain ignorant.
Really? Forgive me if I offend, but would you happen to have the texts to prove this, or at least know where I could get them?

“Playing the best hits on KAPE”

Level 1

Since: Nov 09

Music City, USA

#8 Dec 13, 2009
Amelya wrote:
Well, IMO, Satan isn't bad or good because "he" doesn't exist. It was just an invention to explain a contradiction in Judaism, than in Christianity and in Islam(and, as demons or other malefic entities, in other religions as well) "if God is good, why does "evil"(death, natural disasters, "evil"persons, etc) exists?"
I'm glad that you stated that its just your opinion, or I would ask you to prove it.
Tex

Austin, TX

#9 Dec 13, 2009
A Metal Fan wrote:
<quoted text>
Hitler gave Germany Europe, yet his own military plotted to kill him. The British Empire gave the pilgrims the chance to settle the east coast, yet the pilgrims rebelled. Why? Because both are/were corrupt.
It does not matter who gave you what you have, if they show themselves to be unworthy of respect, then they do not get it. If you had a drunken father, would you respect him, even if he did help bring you into this world? NO.
Same thing applies here. We may not have an authentic account of why Satan rebelled, but looking at God's actions with critical eyes, his reasons are heavily implied.
You don't understand the value of existence. Not anywhere near comparable to Hitler giving Germany Europe. Your existence, and the opportunity to exist forever, beside the creator was and still is the ultimate gift. That is no where near a fair comparrison. And your parents didn't give you life, your parents had sex, God gave YOU life.

“Playing the best hits on KAPE”

Level 1

Since: Nov 09

Music City, USA

#10 Dec 13, 2009
A Metal Fan wrote:
<quoted text>
Which is then getting into the philosophical argument of the problem of evil.
Though I understand where you are coming from with the non-existant thing, For the purposes of this thread, can you treat God and Satan like you would Frodo Baggins and Harry Potter?
LOL, to many including myself, persons of the Bible mean more than a fictional wizard going around shooting people with phaser beams and turning a rock into a gumdrop. How can someone who believes in any faith lower their beliefs to that point?

That, my friend is a difference in faith and thinking something exists. I would feel very awkward treating it as such. You do what you want, because you're here to spread your concrete opinion and will retort obscenely when someone makes a valid argument.

Personally, what this whole argument comes to is respect for persons of faith and letting them believe what they want because its their right to do so.
Tex

Austin, TX

#11 Dec 13, 2009
Everyman wrote:
Gnostics believed that Satan was the one giving enlightenment by giving knowledge to mankind, and thus allowing man to gain true redemption. God was seen as enslaving because he wanted man to remain ignorant.
And you know what the problem with that is. Satan who new this difference between wrong and right, already fcked up his opportunity, because face it, he knew GOD existed for 100% fact, and still denied him, which landed him in Hel.

All he did was introduce man to the opportunity to go to He1L and suffer for eternity like he's doing. If anyone considers that a gift, then they're crazy.
Tex

Austin, TX

#12 Dec 13, 2009
Amelya wrote:
Well, IMO, Satan isn't bad or good because "he" doesn't exist. It was just an invention to explain a contradiction in Judaism, than in Christianity and in Islam(and, as demons or other malefic entities, in other religions as well) "if God is good, why does "evil"(death, natural disasters, "evil"persons, etc) exists?"
Satan does exist, His greatest trick of all is convincing you that he doesn't.

“Ecko Lucifer”

Level 1

Since: Apr 08

Aurora, CO

#13 Dec 13, 2009
Tex wrote:
<quoted text>
You don't understand the value of existence. Not anywhere near comparable to Hitler giving Germany Europe. Your existence, and the opportunity to exist forever, beside the creator was and still is the ultimate gift. That is no where near a fair comparrison. And your parents didn't give you life, your parents had sex, God gave YOU life.
Depends on the philosophy of how a soul is created. A Tradouchenist(Don't laugh) will think that a soul does not come from God, but form the merging of one's parents via sexual intercourse.

The ultimate gift, as you put it, is ours to do with what we see fit. The fact that God demands us to bow down to him, or go to a place of eternal torment contradicts this idea of having the freedom to choose our own lives.

Really, though, we are getting away from the topic. Why is Satan bad, why is God good?

“Ecko Lucifer”

Level 1

Since: Apr 08

Aurora, CO

#14 Dec 13, 2009
Ape Linkon wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL, to many including myself, persons of the Bible mean more than a fictional wizard going around shooting people with phaser beams and turning a rock into a gumdrop. How can someone who believes in any faith lower their beliefs to that point?
That, my friend is a difference in faith and thinking something exists. I would feel very awkward treating it as such. You do what you want, because you're here to spread your concrete opinion and will retort obscenely when someone makes a valid argument.
Personally, what this whole argument comes to is respect for persons of faith and letting them believe what they want because its their right to do so.
I'm asking an atheist to do what I described in the post you quoted. I am also here to ask questions and get answers. My title for this thread is "Is Satan Really Such A Bad Guy?" A question.

Now, you do not have to threat God or Satan like fictional characters, but you can still answer the question posed to you above. Why is Satan the bad guy? Why not god?
216 ELITE

Salinas, CA

#15 Dec 13, 2009
satan beaz dat white man aka (crakkka debil monkey) be iz holdig down dem aincent egipshit afrocant bantu wurroir kigz!!!

BADF!

BADF!

Level 3

Since: May 09

Location hidden

#16 Dec 13, 2009
Well, if you would consider Satan and God as real......firstly I would say that either God isn't omnipotent and all-knowning, or Satan has the intelligence of a 5 years old child. What could be more illogical than fight an omnipotent being?

And of course, there is another contradiction.....without "evil" existing we couldn't be "good" people. You need to know what a moral or immoral action/behavior is, and you need the opportunity to chose one of this in a certain situation to be able to say that you are a "good" person. If all we would know would be an existence without evil, without the possibility(or even the knowledge) to do something bad, we wouldn't be "good" or "evil" persons.
Tex

Austin, TX

#17 Dec 13, 2009
Amelya wrote:
Well, if you would consider Satan and God as real......firstly I would say that either God isn't omnipotent and all-knowning, or Satan has the intelligence of a 5 years old child. What could be more illogical than fight an omnipotent being?
EXACTLY! Something so illogical is deserving of the punishment of being "Shunned" from God's Greatness. Angels have a freedom of will also, there's is different from ours, because, like you said, Satan knew God is omnipotent. Therefore, there is no path for forgiveness. He made his choice. All the evidence was there, he knew God, so what's left? No more convincing involved? All the evidence was laid out for him. He just wanted to overthrow God. Simple as that.
Amelya wrote:
And of course, there is another contradiction.....without "evil" existing we couldn't be "good" people. You need to know what a moral or immoral action/behavior is, and you need the opportunity to chose one of this in a certain situation to be able to say that you are a "good" person. If all we would know would be an existence without evil, without the possibility(or even the knowledge) to do something bad, we wouldn't be "good" or "evil" persons.
Exactly Again!! We would be INNOCENT. Like a child. Not good nor bad, but Innocent.

“LEGALIZE MEXICANS”

Level 5

Since: Oct 09

TO TAKE THE BLACKS JOBS

#18 Dec 13, 2009
Actually.....

I am a nice guy.....
Pere du Champ

United States

#19 Dec 13, 2009
All religious systems have recognized the existence of good and evil entities at the spirit level. Wrapping this up with Christian doctrine just makes it dogmatic and frankly unbelievable.

But good and evil are real enough.

Examples:
Good: me
Evil: Max

“LEGALIZE MEXICANS”

Level 5

Since: Oct 09

TO TAKE THE BLACKS JOBS

#20 Dec 13, 2009
Pere du Champ wrote:
All religious systems have recognized the existence of good and evil entities at the spirit level. Wrapping this up with Christian doctrine just makes it dogmatic and frankly unbelievable.
But good and evil are real enough.
Examples:
Good: me
Evil: Max
Now that was funny.........clown

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