attai=savant??

Level 7

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#151 Oct 20, 2013
sONE wrote:
<quoted text>
One more time- I don't know what White privilege is. I really don't. However, IF your race/group/tribe had a privilege that would extend to your descendants, would you work to get rid of it or to dilute it? Would that make sense?
I've looked into this so-called white privilege. It seems to me that blacks do have some legitimate gripes. But that's all they are, gripes. After hearing these complaints all I can do is tell them to watch me as I play the world's tiniest violin.

It is disturbing that this has been taken so far as to have the U.S. government fund campaigns in places like Minnesota where they put up billboards encouraging white guilt, and have activists (scratch that, useful idiots) handing out white guilt... Oh I mean white privilege bracelets for students to wear at a university in Minnesota. It's maddening.

They complain that American society is set up for white people. Well tough shit. This country was founded by white people for white people, and built by white people. That's simply a matter of fact. Here's a Burke quote:

"Society is indeed a contract. Subordinate contracts for objects of mere occasional interest may be dissolved at pleasure—but the state ought not to be considered as nothing better than a partnership agreement in a trade of pepper and coffee, calico or tobacco, or some other such low concern, to be taken up for a little temporary interest, and to be dissolved by the fancy of the parties. It is to be looked on with other reverence; because it is not a partnership in things subservient only to the gross animal existence of a temporary and perishable nature....

...As the ends of such a partnership cannot be obtained in many generations, it becomes a partnership not only between those who are living, but between those who are living, those who are dead, and those who are to be born."
Loulou

Denmark

#152 Oct 20, 2013
I said the Nordic whites have always been considered - being the superior white race . It really doesn't have a whole lot to do with blacks. Because ppl have always come here to mate with our ppl. Being tall is by many looked a upon as superior . Being physically strong etc. It's not our own fault.
But if Savant wants to pick the racecard. Just kiss some more azz. And I'm sure you're ever so welcome in Sweden . Lol
With all your dysfunctional BS. As one pointed out you capitalize Black and not white. Misspell ppls names on purpose . And a whole lot of other juvilnile insults . We would never tolerate that in the Sweden you kiss the azz of. You'd def learn that we are still superior in our own country. There might still be a few left who would accept those kind of insults - but you'd be ignored by ppl.
We work to have the laws changed and simply treat ppl who insult us, as they do not exist.
Loulou

Denmark

#153 Oct 21, 2013
As for Savant enjoyed the treatment French ppl gave him back in the 80s. He felt enormous joy that white Americans were not treated as well as black. That's perhaps understandable - but not acceptable. Mind you there were far more of the selfhating lefties back in the 80s all over Europe. Who blamed White America for almost everything. The Vietnam war etc.
Plus Americans are looked upon as annoying. It's mostly coz they often speak very loud. Today we do know that Americans fought our wars - and helped Europe. But there're still cultural differences. And the hostility towards white Americans is dimininished. Small countries often have a small country complex. Not something we'd like to admit. And perhaps in a not so distant past we were more likely to socialize with minorities around the world. But not so much anymore, especially among the young generations.
MLK fine, black movements fine. But we do not identity ourselves with that. Those who left Europe are our blood . We know that now.
Europe would not have survived without white Americans. We are brought up with an enormous white guilt. But I think it does not apply to the youngest ppl in Europe. Small everyday insults by forigners, who call our food nasty and our mom a [email protected] and our dad a weak homo. And in any other ways try with everyday insult and lies. Will be ignored. And we WILL vote as we please. Geert Wilders in the Netherlands is a member of parlament. The zero tolerance limit for comming and acting out here has now reached, most of Europe.
Loulou

Denmark

#154 Oct 21, 2013
Walter Henrickson wrote:
<quoted text>
How do you see Israel?
<quoted text>
Whenever there is tension between the Jews in Israel and the Palestinians -- and don't start going into now how the Palestinians are a fake people -- who's side do you take? Does that make you racist?
Could your brand of faux moral universalism be self-serving?
Of course it's selfserving. Isn't everything we do selfserving. With all the different perceptions we have. I think he was married to a Jew. And if he has a daugther by a Jewish woman. His daughter is pr. definition Jewish. Since maternety determinds the religion in Jewish culture. Personally I like the Jews as well. It has to do with thier loyalty towards my family. 2nd WW. That's my perception. But I do not want to kill the Palestinans unlike him. That I'd consider genocide.

“Yes WE Can! Yes we Will!”

Level 8

Since: Jul 07

Baltimore, Md.

#155 Oct 21, 2013
Ish Tov wrote:
<quoted text>
The problem with this discussion is that you and attai are often speaking of the construct of “whiteness”... who was it created that construct to analyze, Dr. West, wasn't it?... anyway... the way Attai talks, with his usual extremist rhetoric, they don't get what he's saying.
Perhaps a thread about this “whiteness” construct would be instructive...
Cornel West (whom I know personally) is, like most of the Black (or white, or other) intellectual left is convinced that race is a fiction, but that racism is not.
However, we mainly think that race is a fiction insofar as it is conceived as a natural entity, or divinely created one. We reject racial essentialism as both FALSE and DANGEROUS.
Obviously, we can acknowledge the obvious fact that race as a HISTORICAL SOCIAL reality is real.
Most of the discussion of ending whiteness seems to come from WHITE scholars in the area of critical race theory.
And they are divided as to whether whiteness as a form of identity can be detached from white racism and white privilege.
AA philosopher Lucius Outlaw whom I met as a student, is one person especially noted for idea that "whiteness" is redeemable, that it can become mainly a cultural identity liberated from the chains of racism and privilege. It might then be harmless, even creative.
On this issue I am undecided. But as I stated on a panel with lewis Gordon, another AA philosopher who was presenting his book HER MAJESTY'S OTHER CHILDREN at a meeting of the American Philosophical Association, "racists don't have much of a problem with the concept of race. Racists have a problem with BLACK PEOPLE."
So, for me the critical issue is to ABOLISH white racism, and the system of plutocracy with which it has been inseparably connected from the very beginnings of the entity that we today call the USA.
Once institutionalized racism and plutocracy are abolished, then probably EITHER whiteness (and maybe even blackness, not sure) will disappear OR it will take on more benign forms.
I guess I stand between those who either insist that whiteness must simply be abolished and those who think it's redeemable.
I say "End the system of oppression and injustice on which at least PRESENT FORMS of whiteness is grounded, and the rest can be worked out or will work itself out."
That can become the basis of solidarity both WITHIN the Black community, as well as the basis of transracial solidarity binding all the disinherited peoples of America and the world.
But as long as sONE and Hendrickson refuse even to admit to the white privilege they benefit from, and as long as many whites delude themselves into thinking that anti-Black racism is a thing of the past (or that anti-white racism is the major problem today), then with THOSE white people I cannot and do not expect much.
I do think that SOME whites are open to this kind of solidarity and willing to acknowledge the realities of white privilege even while also acknowledging that most whites are themselves oppressed.
Some are willing to fight racism as well as class oppression. Far from being mutually exclusive the struggles against both aspect of oppression--and against Patriarchy--are mutually dependent for victory.
I am probably MORE optimistic on this score Johnny ("in Black Revolutionary Films") or Attai.
They are BOTH right, however, in their view that MOST whites are not there yet. Only I think that a LARGER minority of whites than before are accessible for the struggle against racism and economic injustice. Indeed, I think that a MAJORITY of peoples of color and a SIGNIFICANT minority of whites (20--35%) can form a progressive, even revolutionary movement for social justice NOW if they can be somehow galvanized. But that's another discussion for another time/

Ish Tov
Level 3

Since: Sep 13

Location hidden

#156 Oct 21, 2013
Walter Henrickson wrote:
<quoted text>
How do you see Israel?
<quoted text>
Whenever there is tension between the Jews in Israel and the Palestinians -- and don't start going into now how the Palestinians are a fake people -- who's side do you take? Does that make you racist?
Could your brand of faux moral universalism be self-serving?
What a gross misrepresentation. The strife in Israel is not due to ethnic tensions alone, as in the USA. There is an organized JIHAD to eliminate Israel, and in fact to kill all Jews.

If any ethnic group in the USA were behaving as the jihadis do in Israel, things would be quite different here. But we do not have a situation anything like that.

So your question is just another lame attempt to divert.

You're a racist, boy. Deal with that.

Ish Tov
Level 3

Since: Sep 13

Location hidden

#157 Oct 21, 2013
Savant wrote:
<quoted text>Cornel West (whom I know personally) is, like most of the Black (or white, or other) intellectual left is convinced that race is a fiction, but that racism is not.
However, we mainly think that race is a fiction insofar as it is conceived as a natural entity, or divinely created one. We reject racial essentialism as both FALSE and DANGEROUS.
Obviously, we can acknowledge the obvious fact that race as a HISTORICAL SOCIAL reality is real.

...part deleted to make room...

I am probably MORE optimistic on this score Johnny ("in Black Revolutionary Films") or Attai.
They are BOTH right, however, in their view that MOST whites are not there yet. Only I think that a LARGER minority of whites than before are accessible for the struggle against racism and economic injustice. Indeed, I think that a MAJORITY of peoples of color and a SIGNIFICANT minority of whites (20--35%) can form a progressive, even revolutionary movement for social justice NOW if they can be somehow galvanized. But that's another discussion for another time/
I 100% agree that race is a fiction, but racism is not. Yep.
I agree with Outlaw.“White” could just be an ethnic identifier in the USA, which it is, and may still be used absent racism. I mean, whites and blacks in the USA are in the position of having their ethnicity labelled with colors, and they're both stuck with that, I guess. Something like “Euro” and “Afro” makes more sense logically.
Yes, end the system of oppression and injustice...etc. That is the issue, as far as “race” or “whiteness” are concerned.
I agree that this is intricately linked with class oppression, but in the popular mind it is easier to see racism than classism. And the powers now seem to be saying, oh look, you're all equal, no problem, now sign your “At-will employment” paper and shut up. Unions? LOL... not for EITHER of you, white or black.
So everyone could end up with a non-racist society which is still oppressive. That's why the oppressive rhetoric of politicians has evolved from simply yelling “N----!!!” to Romney's “takers” and so on... and we all know most of those “takers” are “white”.
Yeah, getting these people into productive ACTION is the trick... the coalition of which you speak elected Obama, but obviously more than that is needed...
I agree with your perspective nearly 100%, though I would have to say I'm a bit less optimistic. But... I don't advocate that anyone give up.

Since: Feb 09

Location hidden

#158 Oct 21, 2013
Walter Henrickson wrote:
<quoted text>
"Racist hatefest" is what he said. lol. He's pulling this out of his ass.
LOL

Ish Tov
Level 3

Since: Sep 13

Location hidden

#159 Oct 21, 2013
Loulou wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course it's selfserving. Isn't everything we do selfserving. With all the different perceptions we have. I think he was married to a Jew. And if he has a daugther by a Jewish woman. His daughter is pr. definition Jewish. Since maternety determinds the religion in Jewish culture. Personally I like the Jews as well. It has to do with thier loyalty towards my family. 2nd WW. That's my perception. But I do not want to kill the Palestinans unlike him. That I'd consider genocide.
Where did I advocate genocide? My ideal future is one in which the Arabs stop trying to destroy Israel! That's all.

I agree with Israeli policy toward Arabs who are citizens: they have FULL rights in Israel and even can run for the Knesset. I don't want them killed; I want them to live in peace.

So do most Israelis.

Ish Tov
Level 3

Since: Sep 13

Location hidden

#160 Oct 21, 2013
sONE wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL
Yeah, that's hilarious. Your buddy Walter has gone on binges of anti-Mexican insults. That's a racist hatefest, is it not?

Of course you swim in a racist sea, so you don't notice the waves, however big.

Ish Tov
Level 3

Since: Sep 13

Location hidden

#161 Oct 21, 2013
Walter Henrickson wrote:
<quoted text>
I've looked into this so-called white privilege. It seems to me that blacks do have some legitimate gripes. But that's all they are, gripes. After hearing these complaints all I can do is tell them to watch me as I play the world's tiniest violin.
It is disturbing that this has been taken so far as to have the U.S. government fund campaigns in places like Minnesota where they put up billboards encouraging white guilt, and have activists (scratch that, useful idiots) handing out white guilt... Oh I mean white privilege bracelets for students to wear at a university in Minnesota. It's maddening.
They complain that American society is set up for white people. Well tough shit. This country was founded by white people for white people, and built by white people. That's simply a matter of fact. Here's a Burke quote:
"Society is indeed a contract. Subordinate contracts for objects of mere occasional interest may be dissolved at pleasure—but the state ought not to be considered as nothing better than a partnership agreement in a trade of pepper and coffee, calico or tobacco, or some other such low concern, to be taken up for a little temporary interest, and to be dissolved by the fancy of the parties. It is to be looked on with other reverence; because it is not a partnership in things subservient only to the gross animal existence of a temporary and perishable nature....
...As the ends of such a partnership cannot be obtained in many generations, it becomes a partnership not only between those who are living, but between those who are living, those who are dead, and those who are to be born."
You admit blacks have something to complain about, then ridicule them for doing so. What a racist turd you are, boy!

This is not Jim Crow Mississippi, but racism still exists in the USA. Discriminatory lending policies. Discriminatory justice system. These are not trivial concerns, boy. So shove your violin where the sun don't shine.

Since: Feb 09

Location hidden

#162 Oct 21, 2013
Walter Henrickson wrote:
<quoted text>
I've looked into this so-called white privilege. It seems to me that blacks do have some legitimate gripes. But that's all they are, gripes. After hearing these complaints all I can do is tell them to watch me as I play the world's tiniest violin.
It is disturbing that this has been taken so far as to have the U.S. government fund campaigns in places like Minnesota where they put up billboards encouraging white guilt, and have activists (scratch that, useful idiots) handing out white guilt... Oh I mean white privilege bracelets for students to wear at a university in Minnesota. It's maddening.
They complain that American society is set up for white people. Well tough shit. This country was founded by white people for white people, and built by white people. That's simply a matter of fact. Here's a Burke quote:
"Society is indeed a contract. Subordinate contracts for objects of mere occasional interest may be dissolved at pleasure—but the state ought not to be considered as nothing better than a partnership agreement in a trade of pepper and coffee, calico or tobacco, or some other such low concern, to be taken up for a little temporary interest, and to be dissolved by the fancy of the parties. It is to be looked on with other reverence; because it is not a partnership in things subservient only to the gross animal existence of a temporary and perishable nature....
...As the ends of such a partnership cannot be obtained in many generations, it becomes a partnership not only between those who are living, but between those who are living, those who are dead, and those who are to be born."
idk- I've seen it posted that they get harsher prison sentences. I've never tried to research it. I really don't know what areas that this is supposed to go into. Can they not get minority loans and start more businesses? Are they discriminated against when it comes to that too, but other non-Whites are not? I went to a high school that was about 50% "minority". Most of the minority were Mexicans- about 10-12% were Blacks. There was a choice to take college courses or Advanced Placement classes. About 70% of the Whites took the Advanced Placement classes and I would say all Asians there took them. A VERY tiny percent of Mexicans and Blacks took them and had a high drop out rate- especially the guys. How is this the school's fault? We all had the same opportunity. The Blacks and Mexicans who DID take the elevated courses were treated the same as everyone else, and there were never any complaints about their treatment and they did well.

A friend of mine (White) recently got hired at a German restaurant. A Black college girl is the manager and hired her. My friend says she is very sweet. In a world of White privilege how could a Black person be the boss of a White person- or make the decision whether to hire them or not hire them?

I hear "get rid of WHITENESS. wth. Do we ever hear get rid of Blackness, Asianness, Hispanicness, Jewishness. Whiteness isn't a concept. It's a slang term for European identity- fully one ethnicity or mixed with two or more European ethnicities.

Thank you for the Burke quote. I enjoyed that.

Since: Feb 09

Location hidden

#163 Oct 21, 2013
Ish Tov wrote:
<quoted text>
Yeah, that's hilarious. Your buddy Walter has gone on binges of anti-Mexican insults. That's a racist hatefest, is it not?
Of course you swim in a racist sea, so you don't notice the waves, however big.
Show me where he did that. You think if people want the border controlled or are against amnesty in general that it's a hatefest. There are other illegal immigrants besides Mexicans also.
Loulou

Denmark

#164 Oct 21, 2013
Ish Tov wrote:
<quoted text>
Where did I advocate genocide? My ideal future is one in which the Arabs stop trying to destroy Israel! That's all.
I agree with Israeli policy toward Arabs who are citizens: they have FULL rights in Israel and even can run for the Knesset. I don't want them killed; I want them to live in peace.
So do most Israelis.
You must understand that actually threatning to kill ppl as you often do, is not a step forward. We have laws that can be changed and voting rights. I Don't think you mean it, yet you often say it. So how are you supposed to know what other ppl mean. After all this is shorttexting. I don't think Walter is a racist. We have have really hardcore ppl in Europe who do not like immigrants and they are not on the bottom of society . They say things Walter would never express. He's actually being polite .

Level 7

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#165 Oct 21, 2013
Loulou wrote:
As for Savant enjoyed the treatment French ppl gave him back in the 80s. He felt enormous joy that white Americans were not treated as well as black.
Loulou wrote:
Plus Americans are looked upon as annoying. It's mostly coz they often speak very loud.
It's kind of funny because over here blacks are often thought of as being loud.

Level 7

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#166 Oct 21, 2013
Loulou wrote:
Those who left Europe are our blood . We know that now.
Europe would not have survived without white Americans. We are brought up with an enormous white guilt. But I think it does not apply to the youngest ppl in Europe. Small everyday insults by forigners, who call our food nasty and our mom a [email protected] and our dad a weak homo. And in any other ways try with everyday insult and lies. Will be ignored. And we WILL vote as we please. Geert Wilders in the Netherlands is a member of parlament. The zero tolerance limit for comming and acting out here has now reached, most of Europe.
That sounds reassuring. My perception is that the white guilt thing is getting worse over here, but I could be wrong.

Level 7

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#167 Oct 21, 2013
Ish Tov wrote:
<quoted text>
What a gross misrepresentation. The strife in Israel is not due to ethnic tensions alone, as in the USA. There is an organized JIHAD to eliminate Israel, and in fact to kill all Jews.
If any ethnic group in the USA were behaving as the jihadis do in Israel, things would be quite different here. But we do not have a situation anything like that.
So your question is just another lame attempt to divert.
You're a racist, boy. Deal with that.
"Eliminate Israel" means a one state solution as opposed to a two state solution. That's what we have in the US, a kind of one state solution.

Level 7

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#168 Oct 21, 2013
Ish Tov wrote:
<quoted text>
Yeah, that's hilarious. Your buddy Walter has gone on binges of anti-Mexican insults. That's a racist hatefest, is it not?
Of course you swim in a racist sea, so you don't notice the waves, however big.
"binges of anti-Mexican insults" Where?

Level 7

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#169 Oct 21, 2013
sONE wrote:
<quoted text>
idk- I've seen it posted that they get harsher prison sentences. I've never tried to research it. I really don't know what areas that this is supposed to go into. Can they not get minority loans and start more businesses? Are they discriminated against when it comes to that too, but other non-Whites are not? I went to a high school that was about 50% "minority". Most of the minority were Mexicans- about 10-12% were Blacks. There was a choice to take college courses or Advanced Placement classes. About 70% of the Whites took the Advanced Placement classes and I would say all Asians there took them. A VERY tiny percent of Mexicans and Blacks took them and had a high drop out rate- especially the guys. How is this the school's fault? We all had the same opportunity. The Blacks and Mexicans who DID take the elevated courses were treated the same as everyone else, and there were never any complaints about their treatment and they did well.
A friend of mine (White) recently got hired at a German restaurant. A Black college girl is the manager and hired her. My friend says she is very sweet. In a world of White privilege how could a Black person be the boss of a White person- or make the decision whether to hire them or not hire them?
I hear "get rid of WHITENESS. wth. Do we ever hear get rid of Blackness, Asianness, Hispanicness, Jewishness. Whiteness isn't a concept. It's a slang term for European identity- fully one ethnicity or mixed with two or more European ethnicities.
Thank you for the Burke quote. I enjoyed that.
Re-reading the post you responded to, I realize I used some unfortunate language. I used the words "legitimate gripes." What I should have said was that "white privilege" is something instead of nothing. It does exist, but as Ish Tov says it's overblown.

This "white privilege" idea is most often used as a kind of moral cudgel used, consciously or otherwise, to create guilt feelings in white people. A lot of the time it's done in a self-serving manner. If you read any of Savant's or Ish Tov's last posts on this thread, you'll see it is used as a part of class warfare (the hell with identity, culture, race! It's all about materialism!). People like them don't care how far their efforts go to upset white people's racial or national identity and cohesion. Those things are barriers, as far as they are concerned, to increasing what they really want: class consciousness.

We see Savant and Ish Tov on Topix posting this and that, but here is an example of what is really going on in our publicly funded universities. I was searching for something (I can't remember) and found a report from a psychological study. It was on one of those sites where you have to have an paid account (like the kind left dominated university faculty have). After searching around I was able to find a free copy and I read it.

They studied real hiring managers in real businesses and their hiring decisions. They identified white hiring managers who hired white job applicants who they (the researchers) deemed less qualified over black applicants who they (the researchers) deemed more qualified. Let's call these white hiring managers the "racists." The researchers were able to manipulate the "racists" such that in subsequent hiring situations the "racists" would over correct and hire the black applicants. This was reported rather gloatingly. The researchers surmised that the "racists" would self-correct and eventually hire the "correct" person. Yes, they actually used the word "correct" in what person they should have hired. But of course they did not follow up on that. They published their results and that was that.

Level 7

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#170 Oct 21, 2013
Walter Henrickson wrote:
<quoted text>The researchers were able to manipulate the "racists" such that in subsequent hiring situations the "racists" would over correct and hire the black applicants.
Correction to that sentence:

The researchers were able to manipulate the "racists" such that in subsequent hiring situations the "racists" would overcorrect and favor the black applicants more over better qualified white applicants.

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