Racism Or Classism!!!!!!!!

[Crusher]

Harrisson wrote:

<quoted text>
I'm surprised and appalled, Crusher, that you could help perpetuate such a falsehood -- and one that's eagerly seized upon by many a white-supremacist.
Would you care to clarify your incendiary remarks?
(A bad day at work, maybe?? Or issues?)

The statement was rhetorical in nature, Harrisson, not meant to be taken literally.

My point is that because in a country where whites still dominate the power structure, the plight of poor whites is given little if no attention.

I thought you knew how my mind works by now?=)

[ohmy]

justiz4once wrote:

<quoted text>
The "isms" typically go hand and hand....a white person with money however breaks the classism barrier.. but there are still so called "high society" organizations that would never allow a person of color.
Classism is also based off of stereotypes derived from racism..
Racism is interweaved in the so called american quilt; the white guy in your white & black homeless scenario has a better chance and will be afforded more opportunities then the black guy..Hell he may write a book and end up on Oprah.. will the black guy will probably rot in prison for a crime he didn't do; but the pigs needed a fall guy.
America was built a hate and she always needs an enemy..
- justiz

Haven't you ever heard of Chris Gardner?

[MrReality]

Think about it like this. Think post Civil War. Society may want to paint this pretty portrait of the south post Civil War, but in all actuality, the majority of the whites lived in poverty dam near on par with the slaves. Slavery forced pay wages down extremely, so whites were suffering too. The people in south faught a war that really didn't benefit them whatsoever. A big selling point was the higher class south telling the people that blacks were inferior, and didn't deserve the freedoms the WM had. I think racism exists inside of classism. Race and religion are the controlling points that the "Higher Society" use to control hundreds of millions of people. I mean look at the real basis of all wars we fight (Money/Power), then look at how it gets sold to the people (Religion/Race).

[jimmax]

There is waayyy too much negativity in the black community and that f/cks them up more than anything, even more than racism. Even if you don't like crackas, best learn to get along with them even if it is somewhat feigned. Too many lower class black people seem absolutely clueless as to how the world and human nature works because they are to busy whining about how weird white people are to them. And of course the parenting skills among the poor tend to be sh!tty, which is another big aspect of it. Back in the 50's they use to teach home economics and sh!t like that, in poor school districts maybe they should institute parenting skills, to make up for the sh!tty parenting so many of them receive at home.

[jimmax]

Sorry to go off topic, I've just had an incredibly hard day hard day and am rambling. Ignore my off topic babble. I'm also working hard at getting drunker than shit tonight, so cut me a break.

[Ish tov]

DIVIDE and CONQUER...

In this society CLASS OPPRESSION is far more basic than racism. Racism is only one of many tools used to perpetuate class privilege.

And I've got another -ism for you. SEXISM. That is even more basic, since it is crucial to the beginning of imperialism, which created class oppression and divisions in the first place.

The rise of patriarchy, especially among the pastoralist Aryans (Indoeuropeans) and Semites coincides with the rise of imperialism... that of Europe and that of SW Asia.

But... back to class and race... yes, look at the South during Jim Crow. Poor whites basically slaves to the rich whites, but kept down by being FOOLED into thinking that they were "privileged", because blacks were always a notch lower. Black oppression was used as a means of keeping poor white wages depressed. Yet when blacks complained or tried to get "uppity", who put on a white hood to terrorize them? Some poor white schmuck.

Look at poor rural white USA today... Many of them have the same delusions, that the system works for them, that the Republican Party supports their interests... and of course the powers that be made sure their education was so deficient that they would remain ignorant enough to believe this crap.

Oh they've got oppressed people of all colors spinning in circles. You will now see examples of this as the usual black vs. white arguments ensure...

Go to it, chumps!

[Ish tov]

ensure = ensue

sorry

[Harrisson]

Crusher wrote:

<quoted text>
The statement was rhetorical in nature, Harrisson, not meant to be taken literally.

My point is that because in a country where whites still dominate the power structure, the plight of poor whites is given little if no attention.

I thought you knew how my mind works by now?=)

Okay, thanks.

Remember where you are, is all that I ask. There are seriously disturbed people here who are happy to seize your rhetorical flourishes and run with them, treating them as literal truth.

In reality, a comment like "the plight of poor whites is given little if no attention" is grossly misleading at best.

If the plight of poor whites were indeed given "no attention," there would be no government welfare programs of any kind in the United States. People who do not study politics or sociology at the academic level often don't understand that programs like Social Security were created PRECISELY to address the plight of impoverished whites during the Great Depression years of the 1930s -- and NOT to help poor people of color. Same thing applies to the benefits that veterans receive (GI Bill, housing subsidies, etc.)

If we agree that 21st-century poor American whites are never really in danger of starving to death anywhere in the USA or denied a public education, then we can shift the terms of the discussion away from questions of life and death, or sheer physical survival, to the far more ambiguous issues that lie under the general label called "standard of living."

Now, I'll be the first to agree with you that millions of whites have what amounts to a horrible material standard of living relative to the stereotypical "Leave it to Beaver" 1950s-middle-class-suburbia model of American prosperity.

Whether that model is a valid benchmark for modern whites in general to measure their lives against, is highly debatable.

[Crusher]

Harrisson wrote:

<quoted text>
Okay, thanks.
Remember where you are, is all that I ask. There are seriously disturbed people here who are happy to seize your rhetorical flourishes and run with them, treating them as literal truth.
In reality, a comment like "the plight of poor whites is given little if no attention" is grossly misleading at best.
If the plight of poor whites were indeed given "no attention," there would be no government welfare programs of any kind in the United States. People who do not study politics or sociology at the academic level often don't understand that programs like Social Security were created PRECISELY to address the plight of impoverished whites during the Great Depression years of the 1930s -- and NOT to help poor people of color. Same thing applies to the benefits that veterans receive (GI Bill, housing subsidies, etc.)
If we agree that 21st-century poor American whites are never really in danger of starving to death anywhere in the USA or denied a public education, then we can shift the terms of the discussion away from questions of life and death, or sheer physical survival, to the far more ambiguous issues that lie under the general label called "standard of living."
Now, I'll be the first to agree with you that millions of whites have what amounts to a horrible material standard of living relative to the stereotypical "Leave it to Beaver" 1950s-middle-class-suburbia model of American prosperity.
Whether that model is a valid benchmark for modern whites in general to measure their lives against, is highly debatable.

I understand completely what you are saying, and it's basically true.

If you re-read my first post in this topic, I mentioned that whites in Boston housing projects are lowest down on the "social ladder", because of their lack of access to race based programs and independent foundations that are specifically focused on helping NON-whites, therefore they get overlooked.

That's the only point I was trying to make in a classism/racism thread, that I hope keeps going, because this forum needs more threads like this.

[Harrisson]

Crusher wrote:

<quoted text>
I understand completely what you are saying, and it's basically true.

If you re-read my first post in this topic, I mentioned that whites in Boston housing projects are lowest down on the "social ladder", because of their lack of access to race based programs and independent foundations that are specifically focused on helping NON-whites, therefore they get overlooked.

That's the only point I was trying to make....

Right, but I think it's a flawed point if you're suggesting that poor whites are overlooked simply because there are no programs that *specifically* focus on poor whites.

What about programs that simply target POOR PEOPLE for philanthropy without any mention of race?? The traditionally WASP-dominated social elite in this country has long sought to augment its position by recruiting brilliant but POOR (and typically Caucasian-American) youth for private-school scholarships that put these youngsters on the social track to middle-class acculturation and bourgeois success --- a future life as a Yale-degreed university professor or bank president instead of following in Dad's footsteps as a coal miner, or imitating Mom's livelihood as a waitress.

If you also agree with the above, then you must admit that poor but high-IQ white kids DO indeed have access to philanthropy-based tickets leading out of the ghetto or housing projects their families live in. Whether or not they are prepared to take the giant psychological leap into the unknown by actually pursuing and using such options is another question.

[simple logic]

Crusher wrote:

I think class the powers that be are happy as long as the masses of ALL clors are kept in a perpetual state of financial insecurity and competition with one another.
Divide and conquer, as they say.
There are poor white kids in some Boston housing projects who cannot qualify for non-white based benefits like special after-school programs, summer jobs, summer camps, grants, mentoring, scholorships, etc.
Whites who live in the ghetto in Boston in many ways have it worse than blacks, because there are fewer lifelines for them to get out of the projects.
There are always going to be the Bill Gates' of the world who will throw millions of dollars toward helping underpriviledged black kids, which is great.
But NOBODY gives a shit about poor whites.

they had poor whites in katrina. Guess who got rescue first?

Let's see. Poor white,or poor black? Easy decision.

[MrReality]

MrReality wrote:

Bump

Racism or Classism. Discuss

[MrReality]

king_spade wrote:

To me, in the North America they often seemed intertwined and one influences the severity of the other. For example...
- Being dirt poor and black is the worse. Not only are you limited in your access to resources but you are also seen as the definition of ghetto and crime. Some things many poor blacks grew up with, even if they weren't neccesarily negative (ebonics, style of dress) are interpreted as negative and deviant
- Being dirt poor and white is also really bad. Definitely limited access to resources and also, they are often surrounded in environments that breed more impoverished people. The difference is between him and the dirt poor black guy is if the impoverished white guy gets "cleaned up", it's easier for him to fit into mainstream society then the black guy because the majority of people in North America look like him and the way racial politics work in North America
- Middle class and black is better than being dirt poor and white because you have access to more resources. However, depending on the situation you are in (especially with police), being white and dirt poor can be easier to deal with because again, racial politics in North America and ability to fit in.
It's this kind of hierarchy I notice and obviously, the position that is seen as the most prosperous and respected in America is that of the rich white man.

This is a good post.

[Mack the Great]

I think it all depends according to the economic status of a society.If the country is usually a wealthy first world country, then it's about racism, where the majority ethnic group in power feels that they have the right to look down on others.However, in a third world country, it's more about classism, since the majority in power cannot afford to be racist to minorities in a society with low economic success, so the few rich individuals regardless of their ethnic or relgious background are considered high class.

[-FlowerBomb-]

They are interrelated in some way but I would say racism because race is way noticeable that class. It is very easy to see who is white or black compare to who is rich and who is not. Remember, not all rich people dress up and drive nice cars. The first thing most ppl see about others is SKIN color…so they base their assumption based on that…..

[MrReality]

-FlowerBomb- wrote:

They are interrelated in some way but I would say racism because race is way noticeable that class. It is very easy to see who is white or black compare to who is rich and who is not. Remember, not all rich people dress up and drive nice cars. The first thing most ppl see about others is SKIN color…so they base their assumption based on that…..

What do you think is the more limiting factor though? Whether or not my neighbor likes me because I'm black, that doesn't really affect my life, that much. But when you have a system set up the way or system is set up, classism has more of an effect on me more than anything. I agree though, that racism is alive and well on both sides of the fence, but it seems to be a little more overcomable(is that a word) than classism.

[-FlowerBomb-]

MrReality wrote:

<quoted text>
What do you think is the more limiting factor though? Whether or not my neighbor likes me because I'm black, that doesn't really affect my life, that much. But when you have a system set up the way or system is set up, classism has more of an effect on me more than anything. I agree though, that racism is alive and well on both sides of the fence, but it seems to be a little more overcomable(is that a word) than classism.

At the end of the day though, it is classism that has way more affect than racism. If u have class(money), u will be able to avoid racism.
However, to have class(money),you need your race for the most part. It is kind of a cycle….

[MrReality]

-FlowerBomb- wrote:

<quoted text>
At the end of the day though, it is classism that has way more affect than racism. If u have class(money), u will be able to avoid racism.
However, to have class(money),you need your race for the most part. It is kind of a cycle….

That's deep, and True. Nice post FlowerBomb. C/S

[LGK]

Don't think classism is any better than racism. The prevailing thought among some blacks is to judge lower class white AKA trailer living whites, as being more bigoted, than white elites, because white elites are more concerned with economic status, but the fact is, they are the first to call the police when they see a lone minority walking in the neighborhood (loitering) in their eyes. And is it any better for a wealthy black person to look down their nose at a poor black person? Bigotry is bigotry period!

[MrReality]

LGK wrote:

Don't think classism is any better than racism. The prevailing thought among some blacks is to judge lower class white AKA trailer living whites, as being more bigoted, than white elites, because white elites are more concerned with economic status, but the fact is, they are the first to call the police when they see a lone minority walking in the neighborhood (loitering) in their eyes. And is it any better for a wealthy black person to look down their nose at a poor black person? Bigotry is bigotry period!

That's Classism. I've seen alot of even middle class blacks look down their nose at lower class blacks, and when they do it, they use Racism. That's crazy ain't it. Another black person calling another black person racial slurs, and applying the Ghetto/no good/inferior stereotypes to someone in your own race. Whites do it too. I know white folks that refer to poorer white as trailer trash, and other stereotypical racial slurs. Crazy ain't it?