NONVIOLENT REVOLUTION: Is It POSSIBLE?

“Yes WE Can! Yes we Will!”

Level 8

Since: Jul 07

Baltimore, Md.

#2499 Mar 18, 2013
Barros Serrano wrote:
<quoted text>
The Arab Spring is another current movement being carefully watched by both sides...
Met with state violence as in Syria, it became violent, and may have been hijacked by al Qaeda in any case.
In Egypt the people still protest the govt... now the one they brought into power with the Arab Spring. And that govt is behaving very much like Mubarak did.
Non-violent revolution against Islamic imperialism? Is that possible? While in the West we may openly speak of revolution, in the Islamic world you are killed for the slightest murmur.
Very definitely nonviolent resistance and revolution is confronted with challenges in an openly authoritarian society or state than in a republic such as we have in America and the West.(We have, as Marcuse noted, a more concealed authoritarianism which offers unique challenges of its own)
The advocates of nonviolent revolution can't rely or pure moral suasion, but must also think about tactics and strategies.
The success of mainly nonviolent resistance in bringing down most of the Stalinist regimes in Eastern Europe, or the Filipino despot Marcos, or the autocrratic Mubaric suggests that King was no totally unrealistic in suggesting that nonviolence might be effective even in a totalitarian society.
HOW it may be so must be figured out in the process of struggle by progressive and revolutionary folk in the Muslim world and anywhere else basic civil liberties are not available.
If the attacks on American civil liberties continue, we may eventually also have to figure out how to wage effective nonviolent struggle in a totalitarian state.
WE must fight to defend the liberties we have, and to also promote fundamental transformation that will radically expand and deepen the range of human freedom and liberation.
And we must understand that this will be, as Howard Zinn once said here in Bmore, an INTERGENERATIONAL struggle.
I guess that's one of the reasons I chose teaching.
yop

France

#2501 Mar 18, 2013
First there are several kinds of revolution. For instance a cultural revolution as "la renaissance" in france occured without the spilling of a drop of blood. But it only delt with art and a current of thoughts. It was only spiritual. However revolution which involve the rise of poors against rich,the weak against the power as "la revolution francaise de 1789" often, not to say always, end up in violence. Why? because in a system where inequalities are created , the gap between rich or those with privileges and poor -and the history has proven that fact
many times-keeps widening over
time until it cant hold anymore. And once popular mass starts to notice the injustice,to become aware of it,the only way they can change a political system,an ideology, deeply rooted for centuries is to use violence.it s not worth trying to find an agreement as much wide the gap has become.
Sometimes i try to glance in the future:capitalism and mondialisation make rich grow rich and poor impoverish themselves. As decades go by,i can see a few part of the earth population having all goods while a major part remain in the needing-the third world-.
Are we once again creating a privilege class which condones, even worst exploit a "starving class" and if so,sooner or later, will we attend to a new violent
revolution? I wonder when it will occur.

“Yes WE Can! Yes we Will!”

Level 8

Since: Jul 07

Baltimore, Md.

#2502 Mar 18, 2013
Barros Serrano wrote:
<quoted text>
There is good evidence that the movement in Syria has been hijacked by al Qaeda, just as happened to the Tuareg independence movement in northern Mali.
We've seen in Libya no advancement of women's rights, the Amazigh are still discrimninated against, and is there more democracy than under Gadoofy?
The fatal flaw of Islam is again manifesting... change cannot occur in an Islamic society except in the direction of more fundamentalism and less freedom.
Occupy? Where is that now?
I will have to see the evidence that Al Qaeda has hijacked the Syrian revolt. What I hear and read so far indicates that they've been trying to infiltrate the movement, not that they've taken it over.
As for Libya and Egypt I will be observing what happens there. I doubt that the struggle is over, especially in Egypt.
As for the often repeated claim that democracy can not exist in a Muslim country, I don't actually buy that. Most religions---Islam obviously included--do present serious obstacles to the triumph of democracy. We need only look at the CENTURIES of struggles in the West---largely against the Christian churches--to win the fight for democracy in Europe.
Nonetheless, I think the struggle can overcome these obstacles, thoughh not overnight.
Mossadegh and the nationalist movement in Iran indicates that democracy is possible in a predominantly Muslim society. It was not militant Islam but the militant imperialism of USA and Britain which toppled democracy in Iran.
And had nationalist leaders in other predominantly Muslim countries adopted a just, progressive and democratic path to national reconstruction after independence (as Fanon advocated in vain)militant Islam would be far less of a problem today.
Progressive reforms improving the standard and quality of peoples lives, elevating their educational level, and developing practices of democracies--or what Foucault calls "practices" of freedom--would over the past 50 have probably liberalized the Islamic religion ore SECULARIZED (which is even better) those societies.
I think that is still possible, and hence I have faith in the people of the Islamic countries though disbelieving in their (and every other) religion. The human spirit has proven to be incredibly resilient.

“Yes WE Can! Yes we Will!”

Level 8

Since: Jul 07

Baltimore, Md.

#2505 Mar 18, 2013
Barros Serrano wrote:
<quoted text>
It does indeed become a hypothetical argument, since the West has most definitely interfered with democracy in Muslim countries before it could be seen whether they're viable or not. Iraq is yet another example, where the leader, his name escapes me for the moment, was basically a leftist, and was overthrown by the Nazi-inspired Ba'ath Party with the blessing of the West.
Still, history does not support the notion that Islamicism is rising only as a reaction to the West, as it has arisen repeatedly over the centuries and without any Western impetus. Of course if democracy had been allowed to become strong and viable, perhaps the Islamicists would find no fertile ground in those countries.
I do find it very frustrating to see what is going on in Iran, knowing as you do that there was and still is a large proportion of the population who want Western democracy, secularism, etc.
Those of us wishing for democratic and just systems must now be very frustrated as we see the world struggling between Western imperialism and Islamomadness. Neither of these options is acceptable.
I don't think militant Islamicism is SOLELY a reaction to Western imperialism, but largely such. Frankly, while I have issues with religion generally I increasingly think the monotheistic ones are the worst. Not just a coincidence that Jews, Muslims and Christians had to learn PHILOSOPHY from PAGAN Greeks. And that other centers of rich philosphical culture are pagan societies like India or China (India, contrary to traditional belief, possibly PRECEDING the Greeks).
But whatever inherent monotheistic inclinations toward intolerance one finds in Islam, it has been aggravated by imperialism.
But alsos the FAILURE of secular nationalist leaders in the 1950s & 60s (before the current resurgence of militan Islam) is partly to blame
Honest, secular and democratic leaders in Algeria,Egypt, and other countries might have improved conditions sufficiently to prevent or weaken religious fundamentalism.
Notice that even America saw a resurgence of fundamentalism after the decline of the movements of the 1960s, and declining standards of living going into the 70s. In countries like Egypt or Iran, far less wealthy and with a less educated population (except for intellectual elites) than in the USA, fundamentalist resurgence was bound to be much stronger.
However, democratic movements are not finished. Opposition is alive in Egypt and (though less open) in Iran. I'm convinced that Freedom can prevail still throughout the Middle East, and throughout the world.

“Yes WE Can! Yes we Will!”

Level 8

Since: Jul 07

Baltimore, Md.

#2506 Apr 1, 2013
Truthism wrote:
<quoted text>
Then educate people and change their minds to freely making the choice in not purchasing products from huge companies. Keep most things local. Stop buying all those useless products and this will starve those big companies 'til they collapse.
Capitalism is not at fault; peoples ignorance and lack of education is at fault. If you had a very good chance to be a billionaire in this capitalist system, you'd probably do it. Nothing wrong with being rich - it's what people do with their riches that deems it morally 'wrong' or 'right'- which can obviously be subjective, depending on the individual making such a judgement.
We cannot blame the system for things going wrong - we blame those fueling said corrupt people within that system for those things going wrong; then we seek to educate them and thus revolution can happen.
Like our government system: we cannot blast having a Republic (majority of people voting 'representatives' into power) for the crimes being committed within that Republic. No. We point the finger at and blame the individual criminals within that Republic for their abuse of power, then proceed to inform others and try to get those criminals out of power by not voting them back in!
Don't like big companies? Inform the masses not to buy their products anymore because of *such and such* reason(s).
Forcing those companies, of whom rightly made their money the fair way, to give up all they honestly earned by doing free trade and sales with the masses is not the way to go.
While I agree with the need to educate people to make wiser decisions even within the narrow limits of capitalism, I do see capitalism as being at fault and part of what would have to be overcome in a nonviolent revolution.
Shakalaka

Morrow, GA

#2507 Apr 1, 2013
Barros Serrano wrote:
<quoted text>
The problem we face here in the USA is, of course, that the people are dolts. Look at how it's shaping up: Mexicans vs blacks in L.A., Tea Party nuts who'd rather shoot a liberal than seek a solution, and so on...
Among black Yanks in the 60's, an appeal from such as Dr. King was possible. Among Indians, Gandhi's message resonated. Among today's Yanks? doubtful
I think the problem you face is made up in your own head. Latinos and Blacks have lived together side by side for many many years without problems. The Tea party is nothing but a bunch of old white women with too much time on their hands. The only problem with peace being given a real chance is being prevented by the same group of old white men who have turned the Republican party into the Joke that it is. And even they are no "real" threat to anyone. Just a bunch of old white men who are resisting change but have no power to stop it.

“THE TRUTH MUST BE TOLD! ”

Since: Apr 08

Location hidden

#2508 Apr 3, 2013
What is the NEWEST and most promising steps in a: "NONVIOLENT REVOLUTION and Is It POSSIBLE???"

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#2509 Apr 3, 2013
"...NONVIOLENT REVOLUTION: Is It POSSIBLE?."

Of course it's possible..it may not happen in our lifetime though..sorry to bring up that get out of jail nugget.

Remember OBL's main objective was to bankrupt the US...OBL failed. There is a new CEO in the seat and he targets the leaders whereby leaving the soldiers in bewilderment...battle 101..target the leaders.

Fighting a battle on home soil is like playing chicken...one side will eventually realise there is no other direction but off the cliff edge. IMO republicans are doomed to go over the cliff.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#2510 Apr 3, 2013
The republicans/conservatives will pull out all the stops to get you to vote for them..remember Michael Steele..where is he now..nowhere...with his chicken macaroni and cheese promoting azz..it went something like that anyway..I can’t remember...anyway he will go down a dumb Black America conservative.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#2511 Apr 3, 2013
@Savant..here’s an article for you to ponder on dude...I'm sure you have thought about it but to me it is inevitable how this sh!t will pan out.

http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/technolog/h...

I know a few whizz kids that can keep me connected even if my isp shuts me down..(I tell them to fu..ck off) imagine that.

“Yes WE Can! Yes we Will!”

Level 8

Since: Jul 07

Baltimore, Md.

#2512 Apr 3, 2013
freddie47 wrote:
"...NONVIOLENT REVOLUTION: Is It POSSIBLE?."
Of course it's possible..it may not happen in our lifetime though..sorry to bring up that get out of jail nugget.
Remember OBL's main objective was to bankrupt the US...OBL failed. There is a new CEO in the seat and he targets the leaders whereby leaving the soldiers in bewilderment...battle 101..target the leaders.
Fighting a battle on home soil is like playing chicken...one side will eventually realise there is no other direction but off the cliff edge. IMO republicans are doomed to go over the cliff.
It may be that the revolution will be a process rather than a single, dramatic event, The revoutionary process may be not only a movement but a series of succession movements ushering in a new age.
Hence we could very well be active in a revolutionary movement which, with whatever triumphs and setbacks it experiences, will continue into the future beyond our lifetimes.
A collaegue of mine reminds me that even in the USA, there are millions of Americans involved still in cooperative communities and experiments, which possibly foreshadow the transcendence of capitalism and the rise of a cooperative society with a new order of values. Occupy Movement and the new labor insurgencies may simply be a foretaste of things to come. The Arab Spring may prove to be a foreshadowing of a popular explosion in the Middle--regardless of the wicked machinations of secular despots and tyrannical theocrat.
Let us commit ourselves to this revolution NOW! Let the peoples of the world have hope. Freedom will rise like the dawn. FREEDOM RISING!!!

“Yes WE Can! Yes we Will!”

Level 8

Since: Jul 07

Baltimore, Md.

#2513 Apr 3, 2013
freddie47 wrote:
@Savant..here’s an article for you to ponder on dude...I'm sure you have thought about it but to me it is inevitable how this sh!t will pan out.
http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/technolog/h...
I know a few whizz kids that can keep me connected even if my isp shuts me down..(I tell them to fu..ck off) imagine that.
That is an interesting article. We're well past the mimeograph machines our predecesssors used during the 1960s. CAn the electronic media be an integral part of contemporary revolutions as the print technology was in 1776, 1789, 1848, etc? It looks that way.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#2514 Apr 6, 2013
Savant wrote:
It may be that the revolution will be a process rather than a single, dramatic event, The revoutionary process may be not only a movement but a series of succession movements ushering in a new age.
I don’t think so..we would need to reverse globalisation for you plan to even get off the ground. We now have a situation where the Asians can do it cheaper that we can..how do we reverse that? Research thatcher and reagan..thatcher privatised everything in sight but created a nation dependant on government handouts..I say never privatise things we depend on the most..healthcare, transport and energy.

Sinajuavi
Level 6

Since: Nov 11

Location hidden

#2515 Apr 6, 2013
Savant wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't think militant Islamicism is SOLELY a reaction to Western imperialism, but largely such. Frankly, while I have issues with religion generally I increasingly think the monotheistic ones are the worst. Not just a coincidence that Jews, Muslims and Christians had to learn PHILOSOPHY from PAGAN Greeks. And that other centers of rich philosphical culture are pagan societies like India or China (India, contrary to traditional belief, possibly PRECEDING the Greeks).
But whatever inherent monotheistic inclinations toward intolerance one finds in Islam, it has been aggravated by imperialism.
But alsos the FAILURE of secular nationalist leaders in the 1950s & 60s (before the current resurgence of militan Islam) is partly to blame
Honest, secular and democratic leaders in Algeria,Egypt, and other countries might have improved conditions sufficiently to prevent or weaken religious fundamentalism.
Notice that even America saw a resurgence of fundamentalism after the decline of the movements of the 1960s, and declining standards of living going into the 70s. In countries like Egypt or Iran, far less wealthy and with a less educated population (except for intellectual elites) than in the USA, fundamentalist resurgence was bound to be much stronger.
However, democratic movements are not finished. Opposition is alive in Egypt and (though less open) in Iran. I'm convinced that Freedom can prevail still throughout the Middle East, and throughout the world.
You greatly exaggerate the effects of imperialism on Muslim countries. Those countries and their Muslim rulers committed far more imperialism than they ever suffered from Europeans. European rule of those countries was very brief, mostly only following the fall of the Ottoman Empire in WW1! Those same Muslims had ruled and severely oppressed many countries for a thousand years or more.

Muslims committed extensive genocide, terrorism, rape and slavery in India for 1000 years, and they were in power! So what "imperialism" induced them to behave like that? I'd say it was the imperialism of their founder, the false prophet Mohambone, the creator of their imperialist and supremacist cult.

What caused the paroxyms of fundyism in the Caliphate? They were in power, the richest empire the world had known. They were suffering from no imperialism but their own.

The current terrorist jihadism is of a kind with all the other waves of Islamicism which have afflicted the world for 14 centuries.

The period of British and French rulership of Arab countries (plus Persia, Afghanistan and Pakistan) were too short for anything about that period to have left much of an imprint on the Muslim psyche. And proportionally anything the French or British did in those nations is of miniscule proportion to the centuries of massacre, invasion, blockade, slavery and other outrages committed by the rulers of those same countries against Europe! If anyone should have emotional reactions to imperiaism it would be the europeans... and in fact we find that this is the case, if we examine the attitudes toward Turks by peoples such as Serbs, Greeks and Armenians.

Sinajuavi
Level 6

Since: Nov 11

Location hidden

#2516 Apr 6, 2013
Savant wrote:
<quoted text>
It may be that the revolution will be a process rather than a single, dramatic event, The revoutionary process may be not only a movement but a series of succession movements ushering in a new age.
Hence we could very well be active in a revolutionary movement which, with whatever triumphs and setbacks it experiences, will continue into the future beyond our lifetimes.
A collaegue of mine reminds me that even in the USA, there are millions of Americans involved still in cooperative communities and experiments, which possibly foreshadow the transcendence of capitalism and the rise of a cooperative society with a new order of values. Occupy Movement and the new labor insurgencies may simply be a foretaste of things to come. The Arab Spring may prove to be a foreshadowing of a popular explosion in the Middle--regardless of the wicked machinations of secular despots and tyrannical theocrat.
Let us commit ourselves to this revolution NOW! Let the peoples of the world have hope. Freedom will rise like the dawn. FREEDOM RISING!!!
Revolution is indeed perpetual, consisting of many advances and a cumulative improvement of the human condition. There should not be an end to revolution. It continues. A big mistake of many white and black radicals in the early-mid 70's was to think they'd won their battle, and so they went home, or to the disco, dancing to "Celebration Time" without perceiving that the system was busy manipulating to undo the advances made, to oppress in other way, to do the endless imperialist aikido against the people.

And now here we go again, there will be new cycles of revolutionary activity, along with failures and successes, but all part of the same struggle which should never have been relinquished at any time in the past when people felt the revolution had been won. The revolution is never won; it is never over.

“Yes WE Can! Yes we Will!”

Level 8

Since: Jul 07

Baltimore, Md.

#2517 Apr 7, 2013
freddie47 wrote:
<quoted text>
I don’t think so..we would need to reverse globalisation for you plan to even get off the ground. We now have a situation where the Asians can do it cheaper that we can..how do we reverse that? Research thatcher and reagan..thatcher privatised everything in sight but created a nation dependant on government handouts..I say never privatise things we depend on the most..healthcare, transport and energy.
I remember the Reagan/Thatcher years. I was a student during that time. It is going to take a revolution to reverse all that damage.And we must think in terms of global solidarity as well as soliarity on national level.

Sinajuavi
Level 6

Since: Nov 11

Location hidden

#2518 Apr 7, 2013
Shakalaka wrote:
<quoted text>
I think the problem you face is made up in your own head. Latinos and Blacks have lived together side by side for many many years without problems. The Tea party is nothing but a bunch of old white women with too much time on their hands. The only problem with peace being given a real chance is being prevented by the same group of old white men who have turned the Republican party into the Joke that it is. And even they are no "real" threat to anyone. Just a bunch of old white men who are resisting change but have no power to stop it.
What problem do Í face exactly? That Yanks are stupid? I didn't make that up. They're stupid. They're asleep. They're complacent.

“Latinos” and blacks have lived in peace yes, but today the gangs are not. That's a fact, not in my head.

Tea Party in Congress is jamming up the govt, despite being a minority. They are more than impotent old white women.

Take a look at the sequester, filibusters, etc. We have a big problem... a dysfunctional govt beholden to corporate interests, controlled by a fascist minority, and the populace to confused to know what to do. It's reality.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#2519 Apr 9, 2013
Savant wrote:
<quoted text>
I remember the Reagan/Thatcher years. I was a student during that time. It is going to take a revolution to reverse all that damage.And we must think in terms of global solidarity as well as soliarity on national level.
Dude it will happen without you even lifting a finger...business is business..it all boils down to profit and loss. It doesn’t make sense to have goods manufactured thousands of miles away when you make the same goods locally. When your CEO talks about bringing jobs back home you all should listen...a sign of things to come.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#2521 Apr 9, 2013
bush talked about the axis of evil and now it has come to pass..never underestimate the words of your CEO.

“Yes WE Can! Yes we Will!”

Level 8

Since: Jul 07

Baltimore, Md.

#2522 Apr 10, 2013
freddie47 wrote:
<quoted text>
Dude it will happen without you even lifting a finger...business is business..it all boils down to profit and loss. It doesn’t make sense to have goods manufactured thousands of miles away when you make the same goods locally. When your CEO talks about bringing jobs back home you all should listen...a sign of things to come.
The solidarity I speak of will not happen without lifting a finger. I will be work o fmillions, even billions of people. And I actually prefer to listen to them--the demos---than to CEO plutocratic who also told us that the Reagan/Thatcher tripple down theory would work, of that the Iraq war would pay for itself.
I call upon the dispossessed people of the world to unite and rise up. FREEDOM RISING.

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